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E50+ tuning, larger injectors
- Thread starter AZSP33D
- Start date
Thread Starter
#7
I have not upgraded either the low pressure or the high pressure fuel pumps, but I’ve data logged both pressures and also a PID referencing high pressure pump duty cycle. Also I have added the Lucas E85 additive, two ounces with each tank.
The MPG did not change due to the DI injectors, but probably inaccurate with higher concentrations of E as I did not adjust the specific gravity in the tune which controls the MPG setting. I did notice a strange very low MPG after every reflash for the first five minutes or so, and normalizing afterwards but I’m not sure why that was and didn’t really pay much attention to it. Once stabilized it’s 26-29mpg indicated, and this may be more optimistic with E50 than with E10 but I haven’t studied it yet.
The MPG did not change due to the DI injectors, but probably inaccurate with higher concentrations of E as I did not adjust the specific gravity in the tune which controls the MPG setting. I did notice a strange very low MPG after every reflash for the first five minutes or so, and normalizing afterwards but I’m not sure why that was and didn’t really pay much attention to it. Once stabilized it’s 26-29mpg indicated, and this may be more optimistic with E50 than with E10 but I haven’t studied it yet.
Thread Starter
#8
First time tuning a Fiesta (likely the last time once there’s nothing left) I’m mostly done tuning, probably over tuned as some may say... except the following details:
1. I’m fine tuning the behavior of the engine and throttle in several ways. First, is the shape of the WGDC Base, as for example power ramps up strong around 3,500rpm so I’ve made slight reductions in this range, and slight increases on the 3,000 side and 4,000 side to smooth it out. Then also throttle feel and response with very minor adjustments to Throttle Ramping Rate and Throttle Translation Accelerator Pedal Position. I’m always paying attention to the response and seem to be fine tuning all the time, very happy with it. AFR and Timing also influence this and the two are also related but I’m done in that area, just still may tweak those other three. So again there’s smoothness and also paying special attention to when warmed up tires break traction too easily in certain conditions, it’s a problem solving exercise of course.
2. COBB Spark Features — Switched from a 1D general application of spark advance with an activation threshold, to a 3D strategy recently which is always active but you can scale back the low power ignition advance. This is because compared to 91 or E10, E30+ doesn’t require as much advance reduction at high loads and high RPMs, so I wanted to have better control. I’m other words at idle and low power there may be 1 degree timing difference whereas at full throttle 200% load 6,000rpm it could be 6-7 degrees. Obviously the 1D table with say a 40% activation threshold does the same much rougher... but anyway, this is an area that seems to work but still have a lot of tweaking to do over time.
1. I’m fine tuning the behavior of the engine and throttle in several ways. First, is the shape of the WGDC Base, as for example power ramps up strong around 3,500rpm so I’ve made slight reductions in this range, and slight increases on the 3,000 side and 4,000 side to smooth it out. Then also throttle feel and response with very minor adjustments to Throttle Ramping Rate and Throttle Translation Accelerator Pedal Position. I’m always paying attention to the response and seem to be fine tuning all the time, very happy with it. AFR and Timing also influence this and the two are also related but I’m done in that area, just still may tweak those other three. So again there’s smoothness and also paying special attention to when warmed up tires break traction too easily in certain conditions, it’s a problem solving exercise of course.
2. COBB Spark Features — Switched from a 1D general application of spark advance with an activation threshold, to a 3D strategy recently which is always active but you can scale back the low power ignition advance. This is because compared to 91 or E10, E30+ doesn’t require as much advance reduction at high loads and high RPMs, so I wanted to have better control. I’m other words at idle and low power there may be 1 degree timing difference whereas at full throttle 200% load 6,000rpm it could be 6-7 degrees. Obviously the 1D table with say a 40% activation threshold does the same much rougher... but anyway, this is an area that seems to work but still have a lot of tweaking to do over time.
So, I'm wondering, what are your before and after injector numbers at? Obviously you are still HPFP limited for torque to 300ft/lbs wtq, but how much do the injectors feed up high to push HP once torque starts dropping off to free up fuel for up high? Also, $600 for injectors isn't much cheaper than just going with single port aux that will help both HP and TQ limitations of the stock fuel system with even a hybrid.
Jason of Dizzy recently had a good informative article that really shows the stock fuel system is far more limited to "300whp max", even ethanol on a stock turbo sends the requested 2500psi down to 2100 actual at 280wtq. https://dizzytuning.com/blogs/technical-documents/fiesta-st-fueling-issues-part-2
But also, going back to posts 18 months ago on another thread on the same subject, @pwnall1337 - Tim Pownall is an amazing tuner that has been tuning injectors a while.. He's a completely underrated tuner that has done some amazing in-depth advanced tuning most other tuners don't bother with and working with him on stock turbo e50 tunes shows he knows his stuff with some amazing results! Anyway, he *strongly* prefers injectors over aux fuel to max out a hybrid, it's a more elegant solution, especially since he knows his stuff tuning with injectors, but also costs almost as much as single port aux, which is perfect for a hybrid while also cleaning your valves.
Jason of Dizzy recently had a good informative article that really shows the stock fuel system is far more limited to "300whp max", even ethanol on a stock turbo sends the requested 2500psi down to 2100 actual at 280wtq. https://dizzytuning.com/blogs/technical-documents/fiesta-st-fueling-issues-part-2
But also, going back to posts 18 months ago on another thread on the same subject, @pwnall1337 - Tim Pownall is an amazing tuner that has been tuning injectors a while.. He's a completely underrated tuner that has done some amazing in-depth advanced tuning most other tuners don't bother with and working with him on stock turbo e50 tunes shows he knows his stuff with some amazing results! Anyway, he *strongly* prefers injectors over aux fuel to max out a hybrid, it's a more elegant solution, especially since he knows his stuff tuning with injectors, but also costs almost as much as single port aux, which is perfect for a hybrid while also cleaning your valves.
Thread Starter
#11
No before and after on the HPFP but lots of data after, which is not Really out of line with other’s experience... maintaining close to 26.5 psi all the way to redline is the situation with the hybrid, but I didn’t do any tuning for E70+... tuned nice for for E50 but only data log to understand higher levels above that. Up to E50 is fine and the HPFP limitation is more pronounced in the WOT at lower RPM in 4th gear (cringe, it’s OK) type of situation but in 80’s and 90’s for HPFP dutycycle the rest of the way... that’s how I have it tuned. I also trim the WGDC slightly in the first few gears to soften things up, among other things.
Summary, the injectors allow you to tune for E50 nicely, which is most Flex stations here, although there are a couple of E80-90... requires 20% more fuel generally speaking (based on lambda you can run ethanol to a leaner condition than 91 octane, but based on actual AFR (not wideband AFR) it’s a hella more fuel.
Sorry to ramble, not easy to post coherently from my phone while I munch on street tacos. 🌮
Summary, the injectors allow you to tune for E50 nicely, which is most Flex stations here, although there are a couple of E80-90... requires 20% more fuel generally speaking (based on lambda you can run ethanol to a leaner condition than 91 octane, but based on actual AFR (not wideband AFR) it’s a hella more fuel.
Sorry to ramble, not easy to post coherently from my phone while I munch on street tacos. 🌮
Thread Starter
#12
Got the injectors from Tim a while back and we talked quite a bit. Fun stuff, and he’s current on the injectors from Pumaspeed... and now the other Fiesta ST guys here are getting into it, so I wouldn’t be scared to get the injectors. Lot less $ now through Whoosh, although not sure what to make of the differences machining the Pumaspeed versions for different height and the second seal installation as a result.
Thread Starter
#13
Sure, let me dig up something, doesn’t really say much about the subject of tuning for high E content as I left a LOT on the table in terms of ignition timing advance at higher E, but at least you can see we can get more comfortable with the big injectors. No side by side with OEM vs 30% as the Hybrid install was concurrent with plugs and injectors.
Just replying to your latest post but all that above was far from rambling, you just took the time to answer my question properly! I'm very happy to hear tuning details as I'm just getting to the point now where I at least almost understand most of the important stuff after slowly building up the last couple of years, hehe... BTW, do you have the part # for the injectors so I can shop around? I'm still debating between injectors or straight aux with my hybrid, I just don't want to get into worrying about doing too much, I already know for sure I will never go BT, I'm more a low end guy, so the torque limits also worry me too!
I mean, up until recently all the mainstream talk here and in the FB groups has been pretty much "if you add aux you can get another 30hp up top with a hybrid" and that was it as far as fuel limits, period really... but, since the injector post 18 months ago or whatever, and even then not much talk at all, until now suddenly it seems.. Not only that, but finally realizing we actually hit HPFP torque limits on a stock turbo with a simple flash e30 tune truly blew my mind, I always, always thought it was the stock turbo itself maxed at 300ft/lbs, not fueling related at all! (and of course, we all know the HP limit is around 220 corrected WHP, hence the main reason for a hybrid is to add HP up top that you miss, not more torque, really..)
So even if the Whoosh Aux kit is $880 with proper harness, it is able to help alleviate both HP and TQ fuel limits along with ALSO providing valve cleaning making all the catch can and walnut shell blasting talk moot! So even if injectors are only say $560 at the cheapest, it sounds like aux is still the easy decision, injectors alone would simply be a little more elegant than dumping extra fuel into the TB, but only provide one benefit.. I say screw it, results are what matters! LOL
I mean, up until recently all the mainstream talk here and in the FB groups has been pretty much "if you add aux you can get another 30hp up top with a hybrid" and that was it as far as fuel limits, period really... but, since the injector post 18 months ago or whatever, and even then not much talk at all, until now suddenly it seems.. Not only that, but finally realizing we actually hit HPFP torque limits on a stock turbo with a simple flash e30 tune truly blew my mind, I always, always thought it was the stock turbo itself maxed at 300ft/lbs, not fueling related at all! (and of course, we all know the HP limit is around 220 corrected WHP, hence the main reason for a hybrid is to add HP up top that you miss, not more torque, really..)
So even if the Whoosh Aux kit is $880 with proper harness, it is able to help alleviate both HP and TQ fuel limits along with ALSO providing valve cleaning making all the catch can and walnut shell blasting talk moot! So even if injectors are only say $560 at the cheapest, it sounds like aux is still the easy decision, injectors alone would simply be a little more elegant than dumping extra fuel into the TB, but only provide one benefit.. I say screw it, results are what matters! LOL
Thread Starter
#15
Here's a V-Dyno of a couple of back to back 4th gear runs, E50 26psi and 11degrees of timing advance... the bump in the blue line may be a bump in the road.
Some comments to provide relevance, most obvious is there's room for timing and it's too conservative, I haven't quite developed new COBB 3D Timing Offset Tables to the full limit for the E50 slot. All 4 cylinders are +6degrees correction all the way from 5500RPM (I carefully balanced all per-cylinder compensations and still monitor all 4) ... and was working on an overall strategy and datalogs for the right timing offset curve at lower load and RPM settings, these do not have nearly as much delta between E10 as WOT.
I'll work up some more info perhaps, I wasn't very thorough documenting a clear picture of the situation for this post as I planned to do in my mind, haha, and moved on to some other projects... will pick this back up sometime soon, sorry about that.
Some comments to provide relevance, most obvious is there's room for timing and it's too conservative, I haven't quite developed new COBB 3D Timing Offset Tables to the full limit for the E50 slot. All 4 cylinders are +6degrees correction all the way from 5500RPM (I carefully balanced all per-cylinder compensations and still monitor all 4) ... and was working on an overall strategy and datalogs for the right timing offset curve at lower load and RPM settings, these do not have nearly as much delta between E10 as WOT.
I'll work up some more info perhaps, I wasn't very thorough documenting a clear picture of the situation for this post as I planned to do in my mind, haha, and moved on to some other projects... will pick this back up sometime soon, sorry about that.
Thread Starter
#19
Pumaspeed set machined to match OEM positioning and installing extra seal in the process, there were no numbers on the box, no numbers on the injectors, no specifications other than 30% more flow. .
Whoosh Hybrid.
I believe the benefits are tuning for higher % of ethanol over OEM injectors with more margin, no downside that I can see other than cost, and doesn't push either the LPFP or HPFP to it's limitations above 3K at E50 and perhaps doable up to E70.
I can't tell you how much additional power is available above the stock injectors as I swapped turbos and injectors at the same time, so I can only guess. I've effectively created a flex fuel setup monitoring E content and adjusting tuning accordingly utilizing the COBB Slot features. Didn't like the idea of calculating/guessing/compromising/mixing, and I'm very happy with the results, no regrets.
Whoosh Hybrid.
I believe the benefits are tuning for higher % of ethanol over OEM injectors with more margin, no downside that I can see other than cost, and doesn't push either the LPFP or HPFP to it's limitations above 3K at E50 and perhaps doable up to E70.
I can't tell you how much additional power is available above the stock injectors as I swapped turbos and injectors at the same time, so I can only guess. I've effectively created a flex fuel setup monitoring E content and adjusting tuning accordingly utilizing the COBB Slot features. Didn't like the idea of calculating/guessing/compromising/mixing, and I'm very happy with the results, no regrets.
So, technically, the stock fuel system starts leaning out at 265whp because of injector limits and it's up to you and your tuner on how comfortable you are pushing the AFR up high, so injectors alone increase you whp potential to 325+ and staying with a comfortably rich AFR. Of course you need someone familiar tuning larger injectors and those types usually feel it's a much more elegant solution than aux fuel, but that's pretty much it... with aux fuel, which isn't much more in cost, you get higher potential whp, wtq AND valve cleaning by adding fuel through the TB so the actual intake valves which normally never see fuel actually washes your intake valves too.
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