Jardamuth Fiesta build and turbo info

[Sourskittle]

I think with that turbo,
You'll do 275whp on pump gas easy. Def think you'll make 350whp if you want to.

 

[Jardamuth]

350whp would not be very practical for me as it would require hi octane gas and some fuelling upgrades.

Beside, I was wondering if anybody ever tried a different turbo configuration with the inlet tranny side along with a battery relocation in order to make room for shorter intake piping?

 

[Jardamuth]

Very cool setup on the big engine! Is everything made in house?

Thanks! Yes, everything was made by me during spare time and some work time also. Here's a second unit we just finished. May not look like it but that thing is a blimming nightmare to build. All custom turbos with modified internals, billet wheels, etc. The stainless manifold alone is 64 pounds. By comparison, building a twin scroll manifold with a modified turbo for the ST is a simple walk in the park

Would you be making a manifold for the twin scroll ST?

For my car? probably for sale? I don't think so. There are simply too many modifications involved in installing such a setup. you need a custom downpipe, custom oil/water lines, custom turbo outlet to connect the piping to, custom intake or at least modify the stock one, etc etc. Not for the seasoned backyard mechanic.

 

[Sourskittle]

What kind of wastegates are those? Synapse ?

Since your going all custom, putting the intake on opposite side ( like an srt4 ) would be pretty cool.

I think your going to 300whp pretty easy though. But I'm a mistu turbo fan anyway.

I also didn't know that evo turbine housing came in different sizes.

I got my spare cylinder head today, if I can miss the rain, I'm going to get back on that "little" TD04HL-23T turbo.

If you get time while doing it, def take pics while you build.

If you don't mind, what comp wheel you going to be using? I mean size wise. MM or 20G/16G etc.

Always wanted a swift GT. Kinda rare though.


Cyborg turbo, TBE, panda TR6 intercooler, drop in green filter.
245whp 293Tq V-dyno
13.3@104mph

 

[Jardamuth]

That is a Tial V60 wastegate. One of the biggest and one of the best on the market.

Putting the intake on the opposite would require a different twin scroll turbo so that the turbine inlet flange remains away from the block. EvoX turbo are normal rotation and would fit on the opposite but they never came with titanium wheels. If I go with he inlet tranny side, then I might be using custom twin scroll ball bearing VF53 from IHI.
Btw, Evo turbines are available in size of 9, 9.8 and 10.5cm, which give more choice depending of what you do with your car and what your HP goal is. Pictures ill follow for sure. I like wrenching on that stuff. Customer came today to pick his setup. I can finally pull the C18 engine out of the R&D dep to free the hoist and start wrenching. I'm using a 50.5/68 compressor wheel which put it in the 16G size. You don't want to use a unnecessary large wheel on a small engine like the 1.6 anyway.

 

[Rhinopolis]

Reading you guys talk about your custom builds makes me want to make some mistakes and learn from the process. One day when I have the garage space and cajones to match, I too shall erect awesome thumbsup

 

[Jardamuth]

Building custom stuff and improving things is what I find the most exciting. Once everything works and work well, I quickly lose interest. Hopefully this car won't work well too soon

 

[Izzy]

Sub'd...thoroughly interested. Hopefully it comes in withing my budget.

 

[Sourskittle]

For comparison, the 50x60x65 TD04 billet compressor wheel I'm going to use is 47grams, but the 9-blade TD04HL turbine wheel is 136grams !!! And the twin scroll TD05 turbine is a good bit bigger !! That ti wheel should make an epic difference, essp paired with the twin scroll. Lets not even talk about my tiny 6cm2 turbine housing vs your 9cm2, lol.

I'm building mine to make 320whp-ish, or where ever I max out the stock fuel system with 4-5 meth injectors on top. But that's why I think your gonna make 275whp so easy, its a BA turbo.

 

[Jardamuth]

Interesting data. Are you bolting that 6cm turbine housing to the stock manifold?

 

[Sourskittle]

Interesting data. Are you bolting that 6cm turbine housing to the stock manifold?

Yes sir. I don't personally have the time or skill to make a reliable twin scroll custom manifold. Even still, the material cost is pretty high too, to use the correct and nice parts. I'm also a fan of the cast reliability and its heat holding/transferring properties.

There actually is a TD04HL twin scroll. But it can only use the turbine that comes in it, which is much heavier.

Anyway, I'm going to use a piece of 1" thick steel as an adaptor so I have room go countersink bolts. Besides that, its just going to be one of my ported externally gated manifolds. As apposed to adapting to the miltek downpipe I have, I'm just going to build a new one. The TD04HL oil return line is actually the same as the fist. The water lines get shuffled to the backside between the block and the turbo ( but there is plenty of room ). The oil feed line with have to be custom made due to the awesome O-ring thingy on the cylinder head. I could always tap/thread the cylinder head for a fitting, but I love the O-rings on the oil pan and cylinder head, so I'm just going to have a friend tig some fitting on to old stock parts.

Almost forgot. I'm using the 6cm2 turbine housing, BUT there is an identical and interchangeable 7cm2 turbine housing for the volvo turbo as well. Its like $175. But I wanted to see how the smaller housing did first. At full all out max, its a 400hp compressor wheel and its said that the turbine wheel will still out flow the compressor wheel, so... IDK about that, but it should be capable of making my personal goals. If I can squeeze 290whp out of a stock fist turbine housing, clipped stock turbine wheel (32/38mm), and a stock fist comp housing..... Then I don't think I'll have any issues adding 30whp to the car with the now Upgraded intercooler and a 6cm2 turbine housing, 45/50mm turbine wheel, and a much bigger volvo compressor housing with a bigger comp wheel.

I still think if you build a manifold and do that ti-turbine wheel, your going to have a turbo that spools the same, but out flows mine by a ton on the upper end, due to your much larger turbine wheel and turbine housing. I'm also going to guess that the factory evo comp housing that comes with a td05-16G-ish comp wheel will have a bigger A/R than the volvo comp housing I'm using that came with a factory TD04-13G ( or 15G in some cases ). So I think your building a better overall setup, but for me, cost is a factor, and truth be told, even retail, you can pick up a turbo like mine on ebay for $850 new. You can build one for a little cheaper. And that's why I asked about the cost of the ti-evo turbo. Last one I saw was $3600 off the shelf ( but it wasn't ebay either ).

Make no mistake, I fully believe your going to have a better setup lol.

Also, given your skill set... I was wondering what your plans are for an intercooler. I can't lie..... A water to air located where the battery sits stock has crossed my mind. My syclone friend tells me that the stories of super heat soaked water to air coolers on daily drivers is grossly over stated and with cars like the ATS-V using water to air, its had me thinking.....

 

[Jardamuth]

Well, I must say that I've been playing with turbochargers for a very very long time and have access to a lot of material and various parts. I even have a few very rare Isamus IHI from the F1 era. With years of experience behind the belt, It's easy for me to tailor the setup exactly how I want it. It's not a matter of which setup is best, but rather a matter of personal preferences. I learned a long time ago that power isn't everything. There are things I consider important that might not be so relevant to other people. While I have taken advantage of the twin scroll factor for a long time, a lot of people are still overlooking it or simply don't understand how much it can change the game. I want to make not the most, but the best possible power. By best power I mean the one that is the least damageable for the engine, retains decent fuel consumption and increase total output by lowering temperatures and backpressures instead of more boost. Some may not be aware of this but boosting the crap of such a tiny turbo is not without consequence. At a given level backpressure can be quite damageable to the engine, leading to cracked heads, burnt valves, etc. No counting that it increase the likelihood of detonation which must be suppressed by the mean of retarded timing.

I would be worried using a 6cm with such a large compressor wheel on the 1.6. Surge occurrences might be troublesome at part throttle. Why are you not using a 1.5 bar internal wastegate instead of a EWG welded to the manifold?

The ST configuration makes it hard to build a decent water intercooler setup. I'll stick to stock right now but will probably upgrade to a larger one down the road.

 

[Jardamuth]

If you allow me to comment your setup.

The 23T has been designed for flow, not pressure. As such, this wheel will perform best with larger displacement/low VE engines such as 2.0l boxers where high boost figures are not required for 300 hp +. honestly, I'm not sure this is the kind of wheel I would fit in that turbine/housing combo. I think a 46/58/61 wheel would match your hot side much better and allow for a greater compressor efficiency. I would definitively go with the 7cm right away also.

 

[Caad10Black0]

Awesome thread! I don't know much about building turbos but this sure is interesting!


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[Sourskittle]

Jardamuth, I don't see anything you've said that I disagree with. Like I said, your setup will surely be better than mine, and I don't mind saying that AT ALL. And I'm not saying its a negative thing that your setup will be fairly unique do to cost, and requirements that extremely few can handle. What's the "off the shelf cost of a billet wheel, titanium turbine wheel evo turbo with custom turbine wheel lightening ? I'm not asking what it cost you, or even what it would cost me... I am saying what would it cost retail ? Now... That's not even to start the part about a custom one-off twin scroll manifold. Retail would be, what? $1000-$1200-$1400 for a one-off ?
So I'm agreeing with you on everything. The difference is cost.
You are def right on high boost, high back pressure small turbo's. Like everything, There is a trade off. Nothing escapes the trade offs. Your setup would not escape the cost trade off. The cyborg does not escape the back pressure trade off. And my volvo based turbo/adaptor plate will not escape trade off's either. For instance... I'm not selling it because it would cost as much as a ATP big turbo kit. But for me, its a middle ground to all trade offs. The cost ? About $2400 all included ( coolant/oil lines, adaptor plate, cnc comp housing machining, turbine wheel, upgraded bearings, downpipe, new inlet setup, etc etc ). The back pressure? Surely won't come close to a 9cm housing with a TD05 turbine wheel, but it should still be much improved over the 2cm-3cm stock turbine housing, as well as a 13mm/14mm up size in turbine wheel size ( not to mention its a greddy design 9-blade ). Lag ? The small-sided turbine housing and the smaller frame turbine wheel should help with lag, while I expect an increase, I don't expect a ton.

Ok compressor wheel... Ya got me. Lol. The 23T is big. And it does favor flow. Truth is.... I was looking at the options and it was cheap for me to go 19T or 23T as the they were CNC ready. The 20T is what I kinda wanted, but the program was not written and it was going to have to be machined by hand, which was no issue, but it added to the cost at the time. So I went with the 23T. 2.4L srt4 caliber's make about 350-365whp on a TD04HL with a 20T ( stock ). We have 30% less engine, but VE on our side, so I figured my 320-330whp goals were in line with a 20T. The 23T just meant I maybe able to meet those goals without as much boost pressure, which honestly, the focus and fiesta seem to want a ton of boost to make power. I was shocked when I first learned ATP needed 28-28psi from a GTX2867 to make a 12.40 pass on slicks. And 340whp.

The mis-matched sizing of the compressor wheel vs the turbine is nothing new to me. I know its not perfect turbo charger design to do it that way, and that's why I'm not a fuel snob, lol. E85 and methanol are non-optional to me. Octane can over come that issue. Again, I'm agreeing with you. In a perfect world with perfect design and perfect sizing, you can do great things with normal fuel and tuning. But go ask someone that just bought a new lexus what "the pursuit of perfection" COST, lol.

I can't think of a better suited turbo, a better suited turbine housing size, a better suited comp wheel for what your looking at, or a better design than the twin scroll. But like I said, I can't afford an one-off custom twin scroll manifold (I did look at using a chevy cobalt sS turbo btw ). So that takes twin scrolls off the table. Leaves me with dsm style TD05's or costly garrett options. Non-twin scroll, non-titanium turbine wheeled TD05's, I feel like. Would have too much lag. That leaves me with really odd ball VF turbo's, and the ones I'd want come on rare type STi models that will bolt onto non-STi cars, which drives the price up.

That leaves the 30 year old TD04 series.
Two factory readily available turbine housings. Smaller and small, lol.
3 (maybe 4) turbine wheel options. A good sized readily available volvo comp housing that has a good sized AR, and integrated BOV/diverter, which I can actually buy an off the shelf bolt on anti-surge compressor housing for if I need to. And like I said... I can buy the turbo off the shelf for $850 shipped ( with the anti-surge comp housing ).

If you asked me to trade all my parts for yours, I would in heart beat, lol. But... If I can make 290whp with a 2-3cm2 turbine housing and a 32/38 turbine wheel and the tiny comp housing with a big wheel machined in, then... Adding 30whp from the changes seems like I'm prob not asking for too much...

External wastegate...
#1 its been proven many times external gates do better job at just about everything a wastegate can do. Lower EGT's, reduce the amount of flow into bottle necks ( the outlet on the stock manifold, before porting is 1 3/8" in dia !! ), and more recently, I've found the externals flexibility to be very convenient when fighting back pressure that will just physically over come wastegate springs.
But as it pertains to the volvo turbo setup, its simple.... Its simple. No building brackets and adjusting wastegate arms and clocking compressor housings to match the turbine arm. The external gate would be used for its power advantage anyway, but keeping the adaptation of the turbo simple is a big one. I like the dump ( it really does suck ass on a stock stock turbo though ).

If your only wanting 275whp, then keeping the stock intercooler is def going to help you keep the power down, lol. Its not a bad flowing cooler, but it sucks for cooling. Your turbo won't be kicking out as much heat as a stock style turbo of course, but at 25psi from any turbo is going to make SOME heat. You can remove it from the tune, but the stock ECU is VERY sensitive to heat. And.... I just remembered your in Canada, lmao. I think anyway. Ok... Maybe you'll be ok, lol. I saw 82 degrees at 10:30pm a few nights ago here in FL, so our climates are pretty different.

I just wanted to ask about the water to air thing. People how have it, love it. People that don't, have either never had it or refer to 25 year old systems that were not nearly as modern it efficient. Clearly a bad choice for road racing etc, but for drag racers, its pretty awesome.

Well will see what the 23T does though... Worst case? I sell it for what I have in it, and buy a 20T and another comp housing for the same cost. I'm out a rebuild kit and a VSR balance, lol. I'd rather go too small first on the turbine housing to keep lag at bay and too big on the comp so I don't run out. If the car chokes at high RPM, its $150 for a interchangeable 7cm turbine housing. If it surges or lags too much, I can still go back to a 20T. The versatility of the TD04HL really is its strength too.

PS: def no offense to any flaws in my TD04HL setup you bring up
I know its not perfect. But it is a step forward I think. And I hope you don't think I'm being a pita, promise not trying to be. I love everything about the setup that you are building for you.

You inspired me to bring this back to life, so I owe ya that

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/5450-Not-for-sale-turbo-upgrade?goto=newpost

 

[Jardamuth]

One thing's for sure, I can't keep up with all your writing. I'm not sure how you find the time to write that sort of replies

To clear up things, Ill be using a 9.8cm housing, not 9cm. Titanium evos are not too hard to find. They come up from time to time on ebay used for around 400$. A new one like mine with machined turbine and billet wheel + vsr should be in the $1600 range, about the price of a GTX2860R. As fpr the manifold, It all come down to your builder. I'm guessing around $1200 for a stainless unit. You can use a stock evo downpipe or even a nice stainless unit for around $175. Then you are left fitting the oil and water line. A walk in the park

I really like the IHI turbos. A VF45/47 would work extremely well on those cars. The only issue is that they are not counter rotating and thus are locating the flange too close to the block for my liking.
The ATP setup is nice. The garrett they're using is a very good turbo but I find the rotating assembly to be way overkill for its size. Bearings are actually the same as the GT3582R and are adding too much inertia to the setup. That is where most of the lag comes from with these turbos.

Wanted to wrench on the car last WE but a few last minute orders got in the way. If you need someone to put your turbo together, I can do that for you.

 

[antarctica24]

hello everyone. My name is jess and i'm from quebec, canada. I'm ceo of turbo ms canada and turbine tech inc. I thought i could share with you guys my passion about turbochargers and cars in general. My fist is undergoing several mods at the moment and it came to me that i should just snap a few pictures here and there so that we can chat about what's currently going on. I have over 20 years of experience with turbochargers, rebuilding, modifying them and fitting them to various vehicles and power plants. I'm almost done with one of our caterpillar drag truck project. This one is right in the middle of the hoist and preventing my car from being lifted off.

it's only a matter of days before i can start wrenching seriously on it though. In the meantime i've been toying with the idea of building a few custom built turbos for the st. My current weapon of choice is the twin scroll td05hra.

I would like this thread to be turbocharger informational as this has been my business and passion for a very long time. I'm fairly knoweledgeable with just about any turbo on the market. How it works, what it does, pro and cons.. Etc. Garrett gtx, bw efr, etc. If you have any turbo questions, st related or not, ill be happy to share my experience.

owned!!!!!! That is wtf im talking about!!!!!!!!!!