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Kaur Motorsport 4WD Fiesta Prototype

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Location
Lapeer, MI, USA
#41
When you can get Tony from Pumaspeed on the phone, then he actually gets (some) things done. But basically with all of the machinists I have worked with, things only have a chance of being done properly if you send a step-by-step guide for them.

1. Tighten the main bolts to specification
2. Tighten the deck plate to specification
3. Hone the cylinders
4. Measure the result, check for ovalness and taper
etc
etc

And even then it has happened, that they decide to give the sheet to a new guy in the shop, who misses a point on the written guide, rendering the rest of the work pretty much useless...
I am completely shocked to hear that an aftermarket performance engine builder isn’t deck plate honing. This is 101, and OEMs have even gone to this on some mass produced performance engines.

Have you considered deck plate honing at temperature? You’re absolutely right that the bore distorts with the head installed, but the distortion continues with temperature. Some heat the block prior to honing to help with this.

Also, regarding your main bearing failures, do you have any photos of failed bearings? What material are you using and do you see evidence of debris intrusion?

As I read through this I was concerned that a company that wasn’t deck plate honing is perhaps having issues with block cleanliness after machining? Just a thought...

Regarding knock, looking into the cal is a good idea, but oil type can have a large impact as well. Have you made any recent changes to the brand of oil you are using?

Some commercial oil companies recently switched the amount of calcium they run in their additives and this change could be an influence. If you run a special blend then obviously this wouldn’t affect you.

Awesome build though! Can’t wait to see more!!
 


M-Sport fan

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#42
Most of the pure racing oils have had either severely reduced calcium levels, or even none at all for a while now, I'm guessing to head off any 'foaming' tendencies that additive exacerbates in oils, at high revs [dunno].

The exception to the above is the Mobil 1 RACING oils, which perplexingly have sky high calcium levels, and a very high resultant TBN (total base number) for a racing oil.

They even state right on the bottle that it is "NOT FOR STREET USE" (I am guessing more so because of the insane, almost corrosive, ZDDP levels which will eventually eat alloy blocks and heads for lunch if left in the sump for street mileage/time type oil change intervals, and quickly destroy catcons, than for any other reason).

The rationale was/is that pure racing oils, in a racing/rally engine are changed so often, and are torn down/rebuilt with new components so often, that any acids built up would not be able to do any harm in the short time they are in the block/sump/dry sump tank, so calcium is not needed the way it is for street use long drain intervals

Even most of the modern 'streetable', but racing labeled oils (like Ravenol's racing oils, have much reduced calcium levels lately (save for possibly Red Line, and MPT's Thirty K oils), and use other additives (like magnesium) to take the place of the calcium's anti-oxidant and acid neutralizing properties.

This was already being done with even the first/earliest LSPI reducing, Dexos 1, Gen 1 (and later Gen 2) oils to drop their sulfated ash levels down as far as possible.
 


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eq5

eq5

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Location
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Thread Starter #43
I am completely shocked to hear that an aftermarket performance engine builder isn’t deck plate honing. This is 101, and OEMs have even gone to this on some mass produced performance engines.

Have you considered deck plate honing at temperature? You’re absolutely right that the bore distorts with the head installed, but the distortion continues with temperature. Some heat the block prior to honing to help with this.

Also, regarding your main bearing failures, do you have any photos of failed bearings? What material are you using and do you see evidence of debris intrusion?

As I read through this I was concerned that a company that wasn’t deck plate honing is perhaps having issues with block cleanliness after machining? Just a thought...

Regarding knock, looking into the cal is a good idea, but oil type can have a large impact as well. Have you made any recent changes to the brand of oil you are using?

Some commercial oil companies recently switched the amount of calcium they run in their additives and this change could be an influence. If you run a special blend then obviously this wouldn’t affect you.

Awesome build though! Can’t wait to see more!!
We have not honed at temperature, but we do have comparisons from different cylinder walls now, and the deck plate honed at ambient seems to work. But of course it would be best to have all bases covered.

Here is a Mahle rod end bearing and a comparison between mains from the stock engine vs the failing one:

received_2557224847933635.jpeg

received_434518160761646.jpeg

Rod ends on that particular engine failed with all oils we tried.

The last engine that was working well from the rod bearings side, we used Motul 300V 5W40 with Bardahl Full Metal additive. We changed oil after each 80 SSkm.

How does the logic work in case of the oil being a cause for knock??
 


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Location
Lapeer, MI, USA
#44
We have not honed at temperature, but we do have comparisons from different cylinder walls now, and the deck plate honed at ambient seems to work. But of course it would be best to have all bases covered.

Here is a Mahle rod end bearing and a comparison between mains from the stock engine vs the failing one:

View attachment 30420

View attachment 30419

Rod ends on that particular engine failed with all oils we tried.

The last engine that was working well from the rod bearings side, we used Motul 300V 5W40 with Bardahl Full Metal additive. We changed oil after each 80 SSkm.

How does the logic work in case of the oil being a cause for knock??
Thanks for the photos @eq5

Let me start by saying I'm no bearing or combustion expert at all, but I can ask around at the office and see if some of our team would lend their personal opinion, if you're soliciting the help of strangers on the internet lol

One possible cause for polishing like that can be micro-abrasion from particles in the oil. I'm not familiar with the composition of race oils with "full metal additives", but I'll do some homework.
If you only saw this one cylinder though, that theory might go out the window.

And perhaps I should preface that my statement about knock and oil is related to TGDI engines... if you switched to TBI, this may no longer be a factor for you.

Turbocharged, Gasoline, Direct Injected engines are extremely sensitive to oil composition. Some quantity of oil obviously gets into the combustion chamber (either by blow by, PCV circuits, leaks from the turbocharger, etc.), and that oil presence leads to situations like "mega knock" or "super knock". I don't know enough on the topic to know if it's related to the combustibility of the oil, or how perhaps different elements of the oil effect the combustion process and induce pre-ignition. I simply don't know. But if you think this may be a factor, I can ask some experts who have been working closely on this issue for many years.

I know many recent TDGI engines must specifically run SN Plus oils (as stated in their respective owners manuals), in order to prevent "super knock" scenarios which can lead to catastrophic engine failure like you are seeing. Obviously the first evidence of knock is usually broken ring lands, but I have also seen bent rods quite often. Valve damage and block damage is usually secondary.

I know that when these super knock events occur, they are usually in one cylinder. When you get the engine back together, perhaps add knock signal to something you're logging, and maybe something to have your dyno guys look very closely at.
 


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M-Sport fan

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#45
Yes, part of meeting the current stricter specs to prevent the above negative scenarios is to require an oil to meet a very LOW volatility rate (in percentage), like BELOW 7% or so, with some oils beating that handily with a 5%-6% volatility rate.

But of course, there are some 'contras' out there who claim that lower volatility actually exacerbates the LSPI/'super knock' in TDGI platforms, but I for one, just cannot see how that could happen.
 


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eq5

eq5

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Thread Starter #46
Thanks for the photos @eq5

Let me start by saying I'm no bearing or combustion expert at all, but I can ask around at the office and see if some of our team would lend their personal opinion, if you're soliciting the help of strangers on the internet lol

One possible cause for polishing like that can be micro-abrasion from particles in the oil. I'm not familiar with the composition of race oils with "full metal additives", but I'll do some homework.
If you only saw this one cylinder though, that theory might go out the window.

And perhaps I should preface that my statement about knock and oil is related to TGDI engines... if you switched to TBI, this may no longer be a factor for you.

Turbocharged, Gasoline, Direct Injected engines are extremely sensitive to oil composition. Some quantity of oil obviously gets into the combustion chamber (either by blow by, PCV circuits, leaks from the turbocharger, etc.), and that oil presence leads to situations like "mega knock" or "super knock". I don't know enough on the topic to know if it's related to the combustibility of the oil, or how perhaps different elements of the oil effect the combustion process and induce pre-ignition. I simply don't know. But if you think this may be a factor, I can ask some experts who have been working closely on this issue for many years.

I know many recent TDGI engines must specifically run SN Plus oils (as stated in their respective owners manuals), in order to prevent "super knock" scenarios which can lead to catastrophic engine failure like you are seeing. Obviously the first evidence of knock is usually broken ring lands, but I have also seen bent rods quite often. Valve damage and block damage is usually secondary.

I know that when these super knock events occur, they are usually in one cylinder. When you get the engine back together, perhaps add knock signal to something you're logging, and maybe something to have your dyno guys look very closely at.
We run the original GDI supported by 4 port injectors. Our knock issue could be identified from the rings in all cylinders, just that one piston managed to burn through before the others. With these symptoms occuring in all cylinders, could I cross out the possibility of something working against us in the oil we use?

Knock is monitored through 2 knock sensors and ECU makes corrections based on the knock events.

Will assemble the engine next week. Checked/cleaned the 4+4 injectors, tested the fuel in a lab, will build the map from zero to avoid any unwanted corrections in the ECU calibrations. Hopefully these will lead to a reliable end result. Surely want to cover as many bases as possible, such as the possibilty of using a wrong oil.
 


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Location
QLD, Australia
#47
Do you have the part number for the mahle bearings. thanks @

We run the original GDI supported by 4 port injectors. Our knock issue could be identified from the rings in all cylinders, just that one piston managed to burn through before the others. With these symptoms occuring in all cylinders, could I cross out the possibility of something working against us in the oil we use?

Knock is monitored through 2 knock sensors and ECU makes corrections based on the knock events.

Will assemble the engine next week. Checked/cleaned the 4+4 injectors, tested the fuel in a lab, will build the map from zero to avoid any unwanted corrections in the ECU calibrations. Hopefully these will lead to a reliable end result. Surely want to cover as many bases as possible, such as the possibilty of using a wrong oil.
 


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121
Location
West Chester, PA, USA
#50
I see what you did there through the hole in the block pic...very clever. HAHA. How Did anyone not see that is beyond me!
God damn it, my wife bought one of those bottle openers in Costa Rica. I never knew it was a block hole sizing tool.

I guess she DOES love me after all.
 


OP
eq5

eq5

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Thread Starter #52
Sorry guys, been really busy here to post latest updates. But there are some good news finally...after blowing a head gasket in dyno, the last version of the engine has been holding now.

For some reason the 1mm Athena racing head gaskets have failed us twice now, even before we got to proper stages. Both times it occured when we got some more heat into the engine, gasket started leaking between the cylinders. So after the last failure, as I could not run the original gasket of 0,5mm due to piston-to-head clearance, we digged into what else Ford has to offer. Turns out they found 0,7mm and 0,9mm gaskets for us. Though those bastards look exactly the same and are just a little bit thicker than the 0,5mm ones, they are priced about 12 times higher. :censored:

So now finally we got the car running properly and it is an awesome machine. Obviously it is unreasonable to expect us to match the world champion in his WRC, but all the R5 cars had to bite the dust :cool:. Results here: https://www.ewrc-results.com/final/61496-grossi-toidukaubad-viru-rally-2020/

We are running quite safe on the mapping, as reliability is of highest priority now. We will run it in this setup for some time to make sure we have a good baseline for a reliable solution. If everything works, then we might crank up the boost at some point and look for some extra power.
 


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#53
CONGRATS on that podium finish!! [twothumb] [raceflag] [coolsmile]

I guess that 'Oyt' is running the local rallies to 'stay in shape' for the few WRC events not cancelled/still to come this year?

But also, does the Estonian WRC round use any of the same roads as this local/national rally did, so that he could use it as both a 'shakedown run', and a 'recce on the fly', pace note refining event?

The other Proto which took 6th; was he running the Evo drive train, or was he using a Ford setup?

I feel like our one national Fiesta 'Proto' (an S2000 with a 2 liter Focus WRC engine swapped in)/R5 campaigner here (Barry McKenna) is a traitor of sorts now that he is running a latest spec Skoda Fabia R5 (as great as they may be) in the National events, instead of his usual Fiestas.
This despite still being the sole U.S. M-Sport dealer/importer, and supplying service crews/support for both his 'arrive and drive' customers in R5/R2 Fiestas, and some R5 Fiesta outright owners as well. [:(]

Edit; I just found out that McKenna will be back in his 'Proto' S2000 based Fiesta for the remaining few rounds left of the ARA championship, because in his words "I will need the extra power over the R5 Fabia for the challenges ahead", as he is correctly expecting Subaru Rally Team USA to be showing up in FULL force, with guns blazing, the rest of this very shortened season.
(So I rescind my 'traitor' comment above. LOL )
 


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#54
Photos look awesome! Some excellent backgrounds for the computer! Great driving and glad to hear the car is sorted.

usi_pg1_5622.jpg


I've been throwing around the idea of building an all wheel drive Fiesta from the US 4-door model.
What drivetrain did you use for the build? An R5 kit? Or something else?
 


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Yes, the pics are cool!

It seems that ALL of the R2C Fiestas running there are Mk.8s, whereas here in the states they are ALL Mk.7s.

I cannot believe that you actually have a privateer running a full WRC spec Mk.8 Fiesta there, that is soooo cool (and you were not all that far behind them!). [thumb] [coolsmile]

The GAZ truck class is HILARIOUS, but they must chew the crap out of the gravel stages, no?
 


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eq5

eq5

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Thread Starter #56
CONGRATS on that podium finish!! [twothumb] [raceflag] [coolsmile]

I guess that 'Oyt' is running the local rallies to 'stay in shape' for the few WRC events not cancelled/still to come this year?

But also, does the Estonian WRC round use any of the same roads as this local/national rally did, so that he could use it as both a 'shakedown run', and a 'recce on the fly', pace note refining event?

The other Proto which took 6th; was he running the Evo drive train, or was he using a Ford setup?

I feel like our one national Fiesta 'Proto' (an S2000 with a 2 liter Focus WRC engine swapped in)/R5 campaigner here (Barry McKenna) is a traitor of sorts now that he is running a latest spec Skoda Fabia R5 (as great as they may be) in the National events, instead of his usual Fiestas.
This despite still being the sole U.S. M-Sport dealer/importer, and supplying service crews/support for both his 'arrive and drive' customers in R5/R2 Fiestas, and some R5 Fiesta outright owners as well. [:(]

Edit; I just found out that McKenna will be back in his 'Proto' S2000 based Fiesta for the remaining few rounds left of the ARA championship, because in his words "I will need the extra power over the R5 Fabia for the challenges ahead", as he is correctly expecting Subaru Rally Team USA to be showing up in FULL force, with guns blazing, the rest of this very shortened season.
(So I rescind my 'traitor' comment above. LOL )
Ott was doing the rally to get some seat time in the car, the stages are in other part of Estonia and not much use otherwise.

The 6th positioned Proto has Evo drivetrain and engine. I am the only one using only Ford engine here. Also to reply to
"Philld_with_donuts" question, we are using transmissions from 3MO, same stuff PSA R5 cars are using.

We have beaten the privateer driven MK8 WRC on one trickier morning forest stage with our old Proto in 2018. This Viru rally we had now was his home event, so we still expect to create some headaches for him in coming rallies where the stages are not so familiar ;).

Ecoboost Jump Viru.jpg

The GAZ trucks actually do not destroy the stage surface as much as they chop down the smaller trees off the road :ROFLMAO:. As speed is hard to achieve in these machines, they try to maintain their speed even in some ridiculous places where you would obviously need to brake. And in these places they usually take a tour through wildlife, before continuing their journey.
 


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M-Sport fan

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#57
That's great that you've taken the full-on WRC spec car in previous battles (but then of course, it might have been driving/crew skill accomplishing that 99%! [wink] [thumb]).

The privateer full WRC cars must be a rarity in the various; National Championships, ERC, and even the 'down the entry list' WRC rounds competitors, given their co$t, and how un-willing the factory teams are to give any up for sale, no?
(I am really surprised anyone there has one.)

Also, the pride of standing on the podium with a WORLD CHAMPION from your own land, at this event, must have been overwhelming! (That is TOO COOL!) [twothumb] [raceflag]
 


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M-Sport fan

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#58
The Dirt Fish newsletter just informed me that both the Hyundai and Toyota WRTs will be competing in the RedGrey Team South Rally, with Tanak and Neuville, and Ogier and Evans (both former M-Sport Ford World Rally Team drivers, who helped the team to a World Manufacturers' Championship and Ogier took the drivers championship in 2017, and the driver's crown for Ogier in 2018, for those not in the know) all slated to start the event.

Are you planning on making this one as well?
 


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eq5

eq5

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Thread Starter #59
The Dirt Fish newsletter just informed me that both the Hyundai and Toyota WRTs will be competing in the RedGrey Team South Rally, with Tanak and Neuville, and Ogier and Evans (both former M-Sport Ford World Rally Team drivers, who helped the team to a World Manufacturers' Championship and Ogier took the drivers championship in 2017, and the driver's crown for Ogier in 2018, for those not in the know) all slated to start the event.

Are you planning on making this one as well?
Yes, we will do it aswell. These WRC cars should also be bait for quite a list of R5 cars to join that rally, so lots and lots of fun ahead.
 


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