After my most recent track day I noticed that the biggest annoyance on the track was the way it couldn't get the power down on long sweeping corners. Not only is this a problem for speed but because of the torque vectoring it really heated up the front drivers side brake until the pads were smoking. So other than an LSD (which I am currently saving up for) what mods would be able to help with getting the power to the front wheels on sweeping turns.
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Mods to improve traction out of sweeping corners
- Thread starter zeddzik
- Start date
This is a core driving skill. Everyone from us driving our FiSTs at a track day to F1 drivers have to roll on the power effectively. There's no fix, just improvements, much of which happens with your right foot. A LSD will help a lot until you break away and, then, the required correction is much more abrupt.
Do you have traction control and ESC turned off?
Do you have traction control and ESC turned off?
There are two consideration here, even with an LSD.
The first is the friction circle. Ideally, you will give as much available grip to cornering as possible by staying off the gas or brakes. I was taught to think about a string attached to the wheel and the pedals. As you turn the wheel, the string shortens and prevents the pedals from going down. As you straighten the wheel, you can feed in more gas or brake. Easier said than done, but it is the key to faster times.
The second consideration is the contact patch. The more tire you have in contact with the surface, the more grip you have to use. As you go around a bend, weight shifts to the outside, reducing the amount of tire that is in contact with the track on the opposite side. You can overpower a smaller contact patch more easily, so you get wheelspin. There is a lot of math that goes into shocks, sway bars, and coils, but upgrades here can help a lot if done correctly. (Too stiff and you can make it worse.) Coil-overs allow for lowering and adjustability and are a good place to start.
The first is the friction circle. Ideally, you will give as much available grip to cornering as possible by staying off the gas or brakes. I was taught to think about a string attached to the wheel and the pedals. As you turn the wheel, the string shortens and prevents the pedals from going down. As you straighten the wheel, you can feed in more gas or brake. Easier said than done, but it is the key to faster times.
The second consideration is the contact patch. The more tire you have in contact with the surface, the more grip you have to use. As you go around a bend, weight shifts to the outside, reducing the amount of tire that is in contact with the track on the opposite side. You can overpower a smaller contact patch more easily, so you get wheelspin. There is a lot of math that goes into shocks, sway bars, and coils, but upgrades here can help a lot if done correctly. (Too stiff and you can make it worse.) Coil-overs allow for lowering and adjustability and are a good place to start.
I will echo the sentiments. If you see the FiST interfering a lot, you are likely manhandling the car. Slow down a bit and try to be more smooth. Cobb AP allows for a more granular control of the TC (I don't think we have torque vectoring in our cars), so there's that option.
If these are sweeping fast corners and you have difficulty powering out, you may be coming in too hot and overbraking - so, slow down...
If these are sweeping fast corners and you have difficulty powering out, you may be coming in too hot and overbraking - so, slow down...
Thread Starter
#9
Yeah so it looks like the biggest mod will be the driver mod haha but I got some GoPro of my sessions at Waterford Hills I'll throw some of it up on YouTube and link it here. I definitely want to know what I need to focus on the next time I'm out at the track.
Left foot braking or at the least trail-braking is the key to making this car go fast around corners. What it does is to transfer the weight onto the front tires, then when you feed in throttle you have more grip to pull you through the apex and out of the corner. Once I learned this little "trick" my confidence driving the car fast shot up massively.
Take the same corner, let's call it a 50mph sweeper, which could be 40-70mph depending on your confidence/skill level.
First time: you do all your braking 200ft before the turn starts which sounds safer, hit the corner coasting or under light braking, find your steering angle, start giving it some gas and then WOT at the apex. The car will feel floaty, and even though you were cornering at what you thought a safe speed, grip felt low.
Second time: stay on the gas longer, 100ft before the turn stab the brakes hard (not full lock, ABS hard, but don't be shy either), then stay on the brakes until just before the turn initiates, steer, then start feeding in a little throttle, apex, and full gas. You should feel the difference immediately.
With the front weighted up you simply have more grip where all the action is happening and the car transforms. You're intentionally upsetting F/R balance to make it corner faster. The real beauty of this car is that it's FWD but with no understeer. Most FWD cars the front scrubs out past the limit and all you can do is let off the gas. The FiST actually oversteers, yes the rear will start to come around (ESC OFF), at that point you use all that sweet sweet torque to pull the car through the corner. That's why journos like to say it acts like a RWD platform in some respects.
Damn I just got myself worked up....think I'll go for a drive now.
In summary, brake late and brake hard. If things get sketchy fix it with the gas pedal.
Happy corner hunting!
Take the same corner, let's call it a 50mph sweeper, which could be 40-70mph depending on your confidence/skill level.
First time: you do all your braking 200ft before the turn starts which sounds safer, hit the corner coasting or under light braking, find your steering angle, start giving it some gas and then WOT at the apex. The car will feel floaty, and even though you were cornering at what you thought a safe speed, grip felt low.
Second time: stay on the gas longer, 100ft before the turn stab the brakes hard (not full lock, ABS hard, but don't be shy either), then stay on the brakes until just before the turn initiates, steer, then start feeding in a little throttle, apex, and full gas. You should feel the difference immediately.
With the front weighted up you simply have more grip where all the action is happening and the car transforms. You're intentionally upsetting F/R balance to make it corner faster. The real beauty of this car is that it's FWD but with no understeer. Most FWD cars the front scrubs out past the limit and all you can do is let off the gas. The FiST actually oversteers, yes the rear will start to come around (ESC OFF), at that point you use all that sweet sweet torque to pull the car through the corner. That's why journos like to say it acts like a RWD platform in some respects.
Damn I just got myself worked up....think I'll go for a drive now.
In summary, brake late and brake hard. If things get sketchy fix it with the gas pedal.
Happy corner hunting!
In order of how they will help, from my limited experience-
1.Driver mod- learn patience, smoothness
2.Tires- bigger friction circle to work with, also helps just about everything
3. LSD/ATB - I love my Quaife, it really allows me to put the power down coming out of corners, but it almost feels like cheating on 1 and 2
1.Driver mod- learn patience, smoothness
2.Tires- bigger friction circle to work with, also helps just about everything
3. LSD/ATB - I love my Quaife, it really allows me to put the power down coming out of corners, but it almost feels like cheating on 1 and 2
There's this school of thought - all or nothing gas or brake. There are people who are quite fast using brutal inputs - but you can only drive like that if you have a powerful enough car. Momentum cars, like Miatas - and I'd put ours closer to this category unless modded - can't be driven like that.
So, I'd advocate smoothness - the "string" visual is a good representation of that.
Also, FiSTs push - all FWD do, ours doesn't have fairy dust sprinkled on it. It's a matter of speed carried into turns; I also noted in my other posts that it doesn't want to rotate - unless manhandled (e.g Scandinavian flick).
So, I'd advocate smoothness - the "string" visual is a good representation of that.
Also, FiSTs push - all FWD do, ours doesn't have fairy dust sprinkled on it. It's a matter of speed carried into turns; I also noted in my other posts that it doesn't want to rotate - unless manhandled (e.g Scandinavian flick).
Yeah, I understand trail braking and weight balance. OP's question is not about entering a corner or maintaining balance during the corner but about the exit, i.e. rolling on power. He's already tail-braked, held the balance of the car through the (late) apex and now he's unwinding the car. As he add powers he starts to squat, moving weight rearward. To add the the problem his inside tire is unweighted until he straightens up. The more power he adds the more he squats and, perhaps, places load across the car and that poor inside tire can't keep up and starts to lose traction. At this point, that left foot push that worked at the entrance (although it probably was a half of a right foot as he head-toed into the corner) or that left food stab that he added a couple of times mid-corner to load up a wandering front isn't going to help. What he really needs to do is give that poor inside tire a break by straightening the wheel (reducing lateral load and adding weight) or feathering the throttle (reducing torque and squat).
The fix is avoid a spinning inside tire altogether: late apex to straighten the exit. I know a couple of guys that race FWD GT cars and they late apex everything, making for some really interesting over-and-under passes on RWD guys running classic lines (no downside, that's their normal line). I suppose that a really stiff rear end might induce enough oversteer that a more classic line work, but who wants to chase a crazy rear end that wants to kill you in every turn? Plus, late braking, diving for the late apex with a willing rear end, and easing on the power right after apex is FUN!
The fix is avoid a spinning inside tire altogether: late apex to straighten the exit. I know a couple of guys that race FWD GT cars and they late apex everything, making for some really interesting over-and-under passes on RWD guys running classic lines (no downside, that's their normal line). I suppose that a really stiff rear end might induce enough oversteer that a more classic line work, but who wants to chase a crazy rear end that wants to kill you in every turn? Plus, late braking, diving for the late apex with a willing rear end, and easing on the power right after apex is FUN!
Thread Starter
#16
It's $200 for the day if you pay online, still a bit steep but its a great track for this car and if you can afford it its well worth the cost. If you don't mind driving a bit longer depending on where you're at I would also check out Gingerman, its a great track and there is usually less people and less groups so you can get more track time and sometimes they do last minute deals for about $160.
Ah excuse me but our cars benefit in the corners real well with trail/left foot braking. It’s not manhandling or brutal input unless the driver implements it that way.
I have driven it both hardcore that way and more gentle and gotten close to equal results it all depends on if I get into my rhythm as once I am in it and feeling it then it all comes together,
Stock the cars do like to rotate some in fact its well noted by most reviewers.
Once one puts in more suspension it tends to move away from that as the spring shock balance is better.
I will add late apexing like Jeff Lyon mentioned above is also quite helpful.
In the end the best way to improve traction coming out of corners though In my opinion is a LSD. Like another person mentioned its almost like cheating.
It allows power to be put down evenly causing less wheelspin as the torque is not loaded into one wheel causing spin and traction loss.
I have driven it both hardcore that way and more gentle and gotten close to equal results it all depends on if I get into my rhythm as once I am in it and feeling it then it all comes together,
Stock the cars do like to rotate some in fact its well noted by most reviewers.
Once one puts in more suspension it tends to move away from that as the spring shock balance is better.
I will add late apexing like Jeff Lyon mentioned above is also quite helpful.
In the end the best way to improve traction coming out of corners though In my opinion is a LSD. Like another person mentioned its almost like cheating.
It allows power to be put down evenly causing less wheelspin as the torque is not loaded into one wheel causing spin and traction loss.
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Right, well mine does. I hit any 90 degree onramp at speed, lift throttle mid corner, and that booty is coming around every single time with ESC off. No flick and I could be doing 20mph. I have a stock suspension 2017 FiST, which is very different from your 2014 with modified suspension including a rear sway bar. Anyways it's nothing to get mad about, and I'm not necessarily saying it's faster either, it's just different, and it does change the way I drive my car. I can sometimes use that lift throttle to get the nose pointed where I want sooner when coming out of the corner.
That being said, however you make that turn happen, it's not going to change the reality of peg leg wheel spin with the open diff once you're back on the power, especially if you're making a lot more torque than stock. An LSD is the clear answer. For me it's prohibitively expensive and at that point I would be committing to owning the car for a long, long time, which I'm maybe not ready to do even though I've already put in $1,500 in less than a year.
To the OP @zeddzik, if you have adjustable coilovers, you could try stiffening the dampening in the rear one or two clicks. It should have the effect of reducing that rearward weight transfer at exit and help put power down. Just an idea that's worked for me on other tuned FWD cars I've owned.
Last thing, I'm running e30 and making an estimated 290 lb ft of torque. My car is no point and shoot brute, but it's also very different from a wheezy little N/A Miata.
That being said, however you make that turn happen, it's not going to change the reality of peg leg wheel spin with the open diff once you're back on the power, especially if you're making a lot more torque than stock. An LSD is the clear answer. For me it's prohibitively expensive and at that point I would be committing to owning the car for a long, long time, which I'm maybe not ready to do even though I've already put in $1,500 in less than a year.
To the OP @zeddzik, if you have adjustable coilovers, you could try stiffening the dampening in the rear one or two clicks. It should have the effect of reducing that rearward weight transfer at exit and help put power down. Just an idea that's worked for me on other tuned FWD cars I've owned.
Last thing, I'm running e30 and making an estimated 290 lb ft of torque. My car is no point and shoot brute, but it's also very different from a wheezy little N/A Miata.
We're on the same page. Indeed, there is a variety of different driving styles, and some fit certain cars better. It is also a matter of personal preference. My car, as I noted a few times, doesn't like to rotate unless there's some grease on the roadway - but, I never tracked it as it came out of the box, as I dove into the mods right away. Perhaps I will put in an LSD, and "while I'm there".... What's another $2k... [emoji846][emoji854][emoji2957]
![[thankyou]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_thankyou.gif "Thank you [thankyou]"){kind=icon}
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