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READ THIS, If you have a question about oil!

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coopersville
#1
i see there are alot of questions on oil, so with the power of my brain, college experiments, and experience united, here's my 2 cents on the matter,!

just my opinion on synthetic oil on turbo cars, is that turbo's heat the oil more then their N/A counterparts and sythetic oil wont break down as fast a conventional oils, and semi-synthetic is a little misleading because it is conventional oil with more additives, and detergents, which makes it better at reducing friction and keeps your engine cleaner, but it still breaks down like conventional oil.

i worked at an import shop for awile and i seen alot of audi and vw 1.8l turbo engines fail because the turbo cooked the oil and people who drive imports i've noticed are a bit stingy and typically buy mobil conventional oil and go 5000-7500 miles between oil changes, at which point the oil has lost its weight.

stay with me now oil weight is modified by adding an viscosity modifying additive that allows the microscopic paraffin strands/coils that oil is made of, separate at lower temps, but also rejoin at higher temps. so lets use 5w20 as an example. it is a strait 20 oil base, when the oil is cold it acts like strait 5w oil, which is all fine and dandy, but after so many heat cycles the viscosity modifying additives will start to separate from the oil, which is what happens when the oil breaks down, so now your 5w20 can act more like 5w10 or even strait 5w as the microscopic paraffin coils/strands no longer rejoin. also the hotter you get the oil the faster the viscosity modifying additive will separate.

what makes synthetic oil better is those microscopic paraffin wax coils/strands are now made of a synthetic compound that is less prone to heat/failure. (i think its more like a plastic)

another thing i havent mentioned yet is another job of motor oil is to collect deposits from your engine along with whatever sneaks past the piston rings, but as engines are quite efficient now i think that oil breakdown is more of a factor then it was before when oil appeared dirty at 3k and now it can still apear clean after 5k.

there are 2 ways to change oil, in my opinion, that are the best for your motor.
1. use cheap conventional oil and change every 3,000miles (best for older dirty engines, like my rx7-f-150)
2. use full synthetic oil and change it every 5,000miles (however if you do alot of highway driving the oil is subject to less heat cycles/per miles so its up to you to figure out an oil change strategy that best suits you, but i still wouldnt go past 7,500miles)

:bonus info-coolant temp senders use paraffin wax in a closed chamber and a contact plate on top so as the paraffin expands it pushes the contact plate further up the resistor to change the value that the pcm or gauge reads.

:more bonus info-oil that has less of a difference in weight number will be less prone to break down. example 5w20 is better than 5w30 because 5w30 will have more expanding coils. thats why race cars use strait oil such as 30w.
 


re-rx7

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#4
0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multi-grade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 grade oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multi-grade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212?F.
The difference is at 75?F, your startup temperature in the morning.
 


OP
hotrodst7
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Thread Starter #5
0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multi-grade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 grade oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multi-grade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212?F.
The difference is at 75?F, your startup temperature in the morning.
good call ^ i had my weight numbers backwards, its been like 7 years since i was in college and i tried to wright that all by memory. i edited original post for accuracy.
 


iso100

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#6
I'm pretty sure most modern thermo sensors use a thermocouple that uses two dissimilar metals bonded at one end to measure the voltage difference across the wires when electricity is applied versus what you described with parrafin wax pushing a resistor (rheostat?).
 


dyn085

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#7
I would never consider using a 3k OCI on modern vehicles. Oil and engine technologies have come a long way since that was an accepted practice and nowadays only the oil industry benefits from that mindset. Changing your excessively early leads to accelerated engine wear due to cleaner additives in the oil never being fully used up.

It sounds counter-productive, but there are numerous threads over on bobistheoilguy.com that break it down with oil analysis. The only real way to tell what the best OCI is for you, your car, and environment is to run a few oil analysis to establish it. For anyone that's intending on keeping their vehicles for the long-haul it's an investment that will easily pay for itself over time.
 


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...
#8
Unless you are only beating on your ST on the track again and again, the factory fill 5w20 Semi-Synth will work flawlessly. Many oils that claim to be full synthetic are not in fact full synthetic, and if you want to pay for the real stuff, you'd better be ready to pay at least double, triple, or more than the factory oil. Who is going to be happier, the guy at 200,000 trouble free miles on the factory oil or the other guy at 200,000 trouble free miles that spent thousands more on a premium full synthetic? I guarantee you wont be able to tell the difference between the engines. In my opinion, don't fix it if it aint broke. There is nothing wrong with the factory oil, so why spend more money?
 


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Phoenix
#9
A lot of misinformation in this thread. No offense.
Truth...there's a lot more to it than this...

One of the most important things to look at for turbo cars, and especially direct injected engines, is find an oil with low NOACK... There's another can of worms to worry about, hehe. I'm a big fan of Pennz Platinum/Ultra/unobtanium or whatever is current....

Maybe jump off right here to start:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3133625
 


westcoaST

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#10
As stated earlier, an oil analysis (blackstone labs) is the only to tell if the brand and viscosity oil you use, your driving conditions, and oil change interval is the best option for your type of driving and your vehicle. I drive about 50% highway and 50% street, 35 miles each way to work. My first oil change was at 1000 miles, my second oil change was about 5000 miles later (5673 miles actually) I then send my oil sample (I use Motorcraft 5W-20, with a motorcraft filter) to Blackstone labs. Here is their report

It shows the oil is working properly, and that my oil change interval is probably too conservative. Being that I can do an oil change for about $23.00, I think for my driving style, miles driven per day and my oil choice, my selection is good for me. It also helps that this oil and filter are recommended by Ford, and covered under my warranty. I will take my FiST to Ford when the speedometer hits 10,000 miles, for their first oil change, but my oil changes will come every 5000 miles.

 


dyn085

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#11
Truth...there's a lot more to it than this...

One of the most important things to look at for turbo cars, and especially direct injected engines, is find an oil with low NOACK... There's another can of worms to worry about, hehe. I'm a big fan of Pennz Platinum/Ultra/unobtanium or whatever is current....

Maybe jump off right here to start:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3133625
Exactly this, which is probably one of the most critical factors of an oil that we use in engines with direct injection. While there's currently no Ford approved method for cleaning the back of the valves you can pretty much guarantee there will be, and this will help stave it off longer and keep the engine running better in the meantime.
 


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Culleoka
#12
Wow...another oil thread! There is nothing that stirs the passions more than an oil discussion, and that includes the endless Ford vs Chevy "discussions"!

A bit of background on my experience...during my Air Force service as an aircraft maintenance officer (+Lockheed Aviation engineering collaboration), my experience building race engines and working with power plant engineers at Ford and Holman and Moody (1960's)...there was always major consideration for which lubricants to use in power plants. My Air Force tech training included engineering courses in lubricants (including "dino" and synthetics, plus additive packages). I have attempted to stay current on the subject of lubricants and believe and continue to put a lot of "faith and trust" in what Ford's engineers have recommended for oils and lubes to use in our FiST's. Of course, if you modify and/or use your car for competition or any other purpose that exceeds the design perimeters of our ST's, then your oil requirements will probably change. The only way to know if your oil is failing you(?)...follow WestcoaST's advice and get your oil analyzed. As others on this thread have advised...go to the bobistheoilguy site for a more detailed discussion on oils and lubes.
 


Sekred

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#13
0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multi-grade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 grade oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multi-grade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212?F.
The difference is at 75?F, your startup temperature in the morning.
Hi RX7

You have some of backwards.
0W-30, 10W-30 will have a thickness of 30 weight at 100 Celsius. The cold temp specified by the manufacturer, (W meaning Winter) is different in the above example.
I would not run a 20 weight in a turbo engine, never. Remember, its 20w at 100c, above that it thins even more.
Ford like most manufactures only warrant the engine for 60,000 miles, after that they don't really give a stuff what happens.
I'm a heavy vehicle/plant mechanic. The current highway truck engines will run for 600,000 miles before a rebuild is needed. What weight oil do they run?, typically 15w-40.
Many race engines will run a single weight oil, 40, 50, or 60 weight. As yourself why, tip, its got nothing to do with fuel economy.
 


re-rx7

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#14
Let’s go racing. I will discuss driving in traffic jams in the Florida summer as well as racing in Sebring though there is no commonality. People lump these two driving situations together but there is no overlap.
On the race track one usually uses all the BHP their engine can give them. You briefly step on the brakes for the corner then put the pedal to the metal the rest of the time. Your oil will get up to 302?F, but your cooling system is around 212?F. The engine produces tremendous heat but can only pass it off so fast to the cooling system. There is a lot of air moving past the cooling radiator so the antifreeze / coolant is able to get rid of the extra heat from this part of the system with relative ease.
The temperature of oil on your gauge is not as hot as it really gets. This temperature is an average with oil from different parts of the motor. Some parts are hotter than others. It is said that some of the oil gets as hot as 400? or 500?F in these racing situations.
I I said that thicker oils are usually needed in racing situations but not necessarily. Remember that a major function of oil is to cool the inside of your engine. In ASTM D 4485 3.1.4: “Terminology: Engine oil- a liquid that reduces friction and wear between moving parts within an engine, and also serves as a coolant.” Since the oil with a viscosity of 10 cS at 212?F thins to a viscosity of 3 cS at 302?F we will get more flow. The pressure will go down some as well. This is OK as long as we have a minimum of pressure to move the oil.
This increased flow will result in increased cooling by the oil. This is a good thing. You would probably want more oil flow in these situations and you get it. The hotter oil thins and this increases flow. The higher flow works harder to separate the engine parts that are under very high stress. It all works out for the better. Higher revving engines need thinner oils. You do not necessarily need to go to a thicker oil while racing. Only experimentation will tell.
The best way to figure out what viscosity of oil you need is to drive the car in the conditions you will use. Then use the oil viscosity that gives you 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM under those circumstances. For some reason very few people are able to get this simple principal correct. I cannot explain further.
These same rules apply to engines of any age, loose or tight. Just because your engine is old does not mean it needs a thicker oil. It will need a thicker oil only if it is overly worn, whether new or old. Yet the same principals of 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM still apply. In all cases you need to try different grade oils and see what happens. Then choose the correct viscosity.
I used 0W-20 in my Ferrari 575 Maranello. It had over 5,000 miles on the clock. There will be a day (my estimate is 50,000 miles) when one will have to go to a 0W-30. In the future one will have to increase the viscosity to a 0W-40, then a 0W-50, maybe. You should use whatever it takes to get 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM during the lifetime of the engine. This formula works in all situations.
Some people have tried this and occasionally get a somewhat low oil pressure while at idle. This is fine. There is no stress on parts at idle, the smallest oil flow will do the trick. It is at higher RPM where more BHP is produced. This is where we need the flow. Remember that Ferrari uses 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM as the place to test your oil viscosity needs. If your oil gives this value under your driving conditions then your lubrication system has been maximized. Period.
Do not go 5,000 miles with the same oil if you are racing your car. You should change the oil every 1 or 2,000 miles. If you drive your car around town then you need to change the oil for that situation. Use racing oil on the track and urban oil around town. The best situation as described by Ferrari is to use the 0W-40 around town and the 10W-60 “racing oil” on the track. It has to be that “hot” track though. A compromise situation would be to use the 5W-40 for both but this may not be optimal. Certainly, if you are just an urban driver as me use the 0W-40 or even a thinner oil as I do in my Maranello. Again, I used the 0W-20 grade.
FYI. The Formula 1 cars that run at 15,000 RPM and higher use straight 5 and 10 grade oils.
Now let me discuss what people think is a similar situation to racing. That is hot summer traffic jam driving. Your car should be able to handle this. If you have problems then you have a problem with your car, most likely in need of a cooling system overhaul.
When you drive that car down the road mid-winter in upstate New York or mid-summer in Florida the engine and oil temperatures will be around 212?F. But your Florida vacation is suddenly altered by a hurricane. You have to get out of Tampa, but so do a million other people. It is now 95?F and you are in a snarl. Everyone thinks they need a thicker oil for this situation. This is false.
Your engine is not producing much heat at low RPM and low BHP output. The production of heat is relatively slow. It can easily be transmitted to your cooling system. The problem is that your cooling system has trouble getting rid of the heat. The oil and the coolant will slowly rise in temperature. They both rise together. The increase is no big deal for your oil. It goes to 220?, then 230?F. The problem is that the cooling system can only handle heat up to 230?F. After that you overheat the cooling system and the car must be shut off. The oil never got that hot, It was just that the water got a little hotter than its system design.
You now see that overheating in traffic is a cooling system problem and not an oil system problem. Do not change to a thicker oil based on your traffic situation.
 


re-rx7

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#15
Hi RX7

You have some of backwards.
0W-30, 10W-30 will have a thickness of 30 weight at 100 Celsius. The cold temp specified by the manufacturer, (W meaning Winter) is different in the above example.
I would not run a 20 weight in a turbo engine, never. Remember, its 20w at 100c, above that it thins even more.
Ford like most manufactures only warrant the engine for 60,000 miles, after that they don't really give a stuff what happens.
I'm a heavy vehicle/plant mechanic. The current highway truck engines will run for 600,000 miles before a rebuild is needed. What weight oil do they run?, typically 15w-40.
Many race engines will run a single weight oil, 40, 50, or 60 weight. As yourself why, tip, its got nothing to do with fuel economy.
Oil doesn't thin that way. I run 20w50 in my rx7 all day. Recommended.
 


OP
hotrodst7
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Thread Starter #18
I'm pretty sure most modern thermo sensors use a thermocouple that uses two dissimilar metals bonded at one end to measure the voltage difference across the wires when electricity is applied versus what you described with parrafin wax pushing a resistor (rheostat?).
yup ford switched to pcm controlled gauges which use the 2-wire sensors that use a 0.9v reference that you described, but my 97 f-150 still has the 1-wire ground reference sender for the gauge, and a separate 2-wire sender for pcm. so both types are used sometimes.
 


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Palmdale
#19
0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.
I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multi-grade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 grade oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multi-grade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212?F.
The difference is at 75?F, your startup temperature in the morning.

My 2006 Porsche N/A Caymen S required 0W-40 engine oil be used.
 




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