So, you think the OEM system is terrible?

[RAAMaudio]

Absolutely true, Taylorfade does know his car audio, being a champion at it and all

None of my cars and trucks ever get rear speakers, simply not needed when the front is done right.

BUT, some just like them which I am OK with

 

[reracer]

Ok, so you guys are clearly way over my head here, but the info is good. Like I'm sure many of us, I want to add a sub, but I don't want something big and heavy. I loved the system in my old SVTF, and it had an 8" sub, and I think that's what I want to do in my FIST. I'm using the compact aluminum spare in my car,(so I have more room than normal) and I want the sub box to fit entirely under the trunk floor. My questions are as follows.

1. What types of box should I build, sealed, ported or with a passive radiator?
2. Should I use bass blockers or crossovers at the factory speaker locations?
3. Should I go with full range speakers in the doors?

Any help here is appreciated.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I would make sure to read this and any other related thread if not done so as most things have already been addressed.

1) small sealed is the easiest, lightest, most compact, way to go, buy a good quality sub.

2) you could delete the rear speakers as I always do and use the signal from there to the amp, use the crossover built in, and then have sub level control at the HU. (I have not verified the signal plays down all the way on the rears as I am putting a processor in my car so check this out to be sure)

3) components in the front, stock speakers are not horrible so do not buy cheap components and expect much of an upgrade, in fact I would not buy car audio branded speakers at all, just buy midbass and tweeters and install them, covered in this or other threads

I will be working on a flip the spare tire, small, low weight but great output sub to offer after I finish this and another road trip, end of Jan or so I should be started on it.

Please post up info on the spare tire you are running, I ditched the big stock spare and plan to run carry a patch kit, small compressor and a can of fix a flat for emergencies as well as small tool kit, I might reconsider depending on the weight of the aluminum compact spare.

Thanks

 

[reracer]

I would make sure to read this and any other related thread if not done so as most things have already been addressed.

1) small sealed is the easiest, lightest, most compact, way to go, buy a good quality sub.

2) you could delete the rear speakers as I always do and use the signal from there to the amp, use the crossover built in, and then have sub level control at the HU. (I have not verified the signal plays down all the way on the rears as I am putting a processor in my car so check this out to be sure)

3) components in the front, stock speakers are not horrible so do not buy cheap components and expect much of an upgrade, in fact I would not buy car audio branded speakers at all, just buy midbass and tweeters and install them, covered in this or other threads

I will be working on a flip the spare tire, small, low weight but great output sub to offer after I finish this and another road trip, end of Jan or so I should be started on it.

Please post up info on the spare tire you are running, I ditched the big stock spare and plan to run carry a patch kit, small compressor and a can of fix a flat for emergencies as well as small tool kit, I might reconsider depending on the weight of the aluminum compact spare.

Thanks

No, thank you! I read the whole thread, but some of it is hard to decipher. I just had the notion that using a crossover at the door speakers would lighten their duties and make them perform better. My daughter rides in back, and I want her to have quality sounds too.

You can go two routes with the spare. There is a factory aluminum spare: http://www.ebay.com/itm/11-12-13-14...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a4837b494&vxp=mtr

Or, you can get the factory spare form an SVTF and change the tire to a 135/70 r16, which is a common Subaru Impreza size spare tire. Since I had a SVTF spare laying around I went the later route. Total weight is right at 16lbs, which is a 15lbs saving over the stock spareI'll post some pics when I get the chance.

Obviously, both these options are much narrower which gives you a flat lower floor, and allows you to run the trunk floor in the regular (non-ST) location.

So you like the birch plywood over the MDF. What thickness, 3/4"?

Also, the lightweight spares from a 79-93 mustang and the Contour might fit, I haven't checked.

 

[RAAMaudio]

You are correct, bass blockers would be the simplest way to removed the lower frequencies from the fronts, they are only 6db, 12 or higher would be better and the right setting front to rear can make the bass seem right up front and integrated with the sound stage sounding much better.

An active crossover would be nice to have if you can fit on in the budget or get something like I am going to try, the PPI 88R processor but then you would want an amp on the fronts if you go that far. What is your budget idea?

Using none car audio drivers can save a bundle to help pay for the rest of the upgrades

The stock rears might be OK as they are for your needs.

Get an amp with a sub gain control, they you can tweak it as needed which on most music is fairly often and keep it down lower when your daughter is with you. By getting the crossover slope just right if possible with how you do this, then time alignment if you go that far, the sub may end up will be louder in the front of the car than the middle which is nice for you and her.

I have not used MDF in many many years, BB plywood, half the weight, stronger....I use fiberglass moldedt o the car or tire, etc so less is needed then the least amount of wood, my best example was a 2.2 cubic ft, 20 lb enclosure, Arc 15 SQL sub, 138.4db on music in a sound quality competition build.

Thanks for the tire info, I am seriously going to look into it as I can get a lower cost sub that weighs a bit less than the shallow one I was looking at and the enclosure would not weigh more. I could have those made for others if enough wanted to go that way.

It would be nice to have a 12" sub and an amp and only add a few lbs over the stock spare tire or go with a ten and maybe the same weight as the spare

 

[reracer]

Ok, this is what I have in mind:

Sub: Memphis MCR8D4

Amp: Alpine 400w X 1 RMS AT 2ohm

LOC: AudioControl LC2i

The sub is about $100 and the LOC is about $70. I have the amp from a previous project. With the wire and wood I should be able to get the sub done for a little over $200. That leaves me plenty of money to address the door speakers. What do you think?

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have never heard that sub but I do know very few subs actually play accurately, they might make a lot of bass like noise but there are very few I like. Also I did not mention earlier I am not a big fan of single 8" subs as they generally do not play as low as a 10 which will end up not weighing much more or costing much more and you have the room for one. I just did a search and found no relevant reviews on that sub on any good car audio forums or magazines so I would have to recommend caution in picking it.

I have sold hundreds of these subs, used them in high end Vette installs where we had to control weight but had good SPL and played low enough. Cost is a bit more but you can shop around and find a deal or a nice used one, if in Utah I could sell you one but not ship out of the area.

http://www.arcaudio.com/c/subwoofers_arc-series_arc-10

To explain my recommendation above:
Of course there are other good subs around but I stopped trying them all many years ago when I started running either Image Dynamics, Arc Audio and sometimes Hybrid Audio. Now I just use Arc Audio and I have won sound quality audio competitions using the Arc 10 and 15" subs. Once I go mobile I will no longer be licensed with them so waiting to try the new Eric Stevens gear when finally released. He is the original founder of Image Dynamics and one of the top car audio pioneers and engineers ever, he designed and built the original Arc subs, I am blessed to be able to call him my friend as well.

-----------------

Amp will be fine I am sure

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I had to look up the LC2, nice unit, no crossover unfortunately so you would still need to address that issue, the amp should take care of the sub but the front midbasses will still get the lower octaves so at least the bass blockers might be needed, especially since the LC2 will add more bottom end. You can run the rear doors directly with the HU or use their signals for the LC2 I believe.

I have used quite a bit of Audio Control gear many years ago, good stuff.

----------------

Speakers, the little nipple looking Vifas listed here are probably the best speakers for the money and dang good, to put in the stock locations.

http://http://www.parts-express.com/vifa-ot19nc00-04-3-4-fabric-dome-tweeter-4-ohm--264-1122

I will have to order a pair of these, just came out, first time I saw them, Dayton air motion transformer car tweeters, crossover is too high for a two way setup so not likely a good way to go in our cars.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amtpod-4-air-motion-transformer-automotive-tweeter-pair--275-195

I really like the Dayton Esoteric for the front mids, I might be using them as part of an audio package for this car, I have a set, wholesale account there, etc.....they are a bit costly for a low bucks but great upgrade. Finding a low weight quality speaker is not that easy.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-es180ti-8-7-esoteric-series-woofer-8-ohm--295-397

I might order as set of these Galaxy audio to test so I can have a lower cost alternative to offer or recommend.

http://www.parts-express.com/galaxy-audio-neolite-sw65-65-neodymium-woofer-4-ohm--245-2494

I have not taken the time to work on my audio install yet so not sure just where I will end up but narrowing it down, I will start it probably mid Feb then be more able to recommend the best for the money, fitment, etc....

 

[reracer]

Ok I'm thinking about using these at the door speakers:

http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-80-hz-high-pass-4-ohm-crossover--266-456

Or should I go fir the 100hz high pass?

Also, do we know for sure that the rear door speakers get full range, or just bandpass?

 

[IronMaiden]

So I'm at a local stereo installer shop: He is giving me a quote for the installation of 4 door speakers (that I have myself) and the installation of 2 amps. Part of the quote is for 2 high/lo passes for the door components. I asked him if those were crossovers, because the speakers I purchased come with the crossovers. He just keeps calling them the hi/lo pass, and won't confirm or deny that they are the same or otherwise. I want to know if he's charging me more than he should. Anyone?

 

[RAAMaudio]

If you go to Autotoyz in Ontario and ask Jason what he will charge and what he recommends you will be talking with probably the most honest and best installers there is, anywhere.
1616 E Francis St Ontario, CA 91761
909-923-7600

 

[IronMaiden]

thx. That's not too far away. How do you know this person?

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have known Jason for a very long time, we were in the Navy when we met, he got out and started a car audio business and also went to school and got a business degree at the same time. I stayed in as had more years in and close to retirement but had started RAAMmat sales before we met and he has used my products since, when I decided to retire from the business I had Jason take over and run it, the only one I felt completely capable and honorable enough to ensure it was ran the way I always ran it, taking care of our fellow enthusiasts first and foremost. He is the most honorable man I know and one of the very few I ever recommend people to and all have been completely happy with dealing with him.

Personally he is the best friend I have ever had, professionally the best business man, we have a very rare relationship that most say never works, mixing friends and business, he is more like family though than a friend, good family that is

We are working on ideas for audio packages for the ST now as well.

 

[IronMaiden]

Can I drop your name when I go in to him?

 

[RAAMaudio]

Of course

Make sure to call first, he is very busy as does many things, you will like him right away and just know you can trust him.

 

[IronMaiden]

thx.

 

[TaylorFade]

Ok, this is what I have in mind:

Sub: Memphis MCR8D4

Amp: Alpine 400w X 1 RMS AT 2ohm

LOC: AudioControl LC2i

The sub is about $100 and the LOC is about $70. I have the amp from a previous project. With the wire and wood I should be able to get the sub done for a little over $200. That leaves me plenty of money to address the door speakers. What do you think?

Not sure about that sub as I haven't used Memphis in many years, but if you're set on an 8"... check this little bad boy out. Tiny box requirements and with a very low resonant frequency (Fs), it should give you plenty of low end and output for a little 8".

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton...source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

But as RAAM mentioned... a larger sub will give you more output and/or do it more efficiently. If you can give up a bit more box size, stepping up to a 10" or 12" is a good idea. Check out the same line of subs but in the larger sizes. Great value there. But the Image Dynamic and Arc that Rick mentioned would be awesome too. It just come down to budget, really.

That LOC is a good one for a couple reasons. First... it has "accubass" which will help to restore the factory filtered low frequency information and it's only done on the sub channel.

Ok I'm thinking about using these at the door speakers:

http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-80-hz-high-pass-4-ohm-crossover--266-456


Or should I go fir the 100hz high pass?

Also, do we know for sure that the rear door speakers get full range, or just bandpass?

As I mentioned above and earlier in the thread.... out HU filter everything below ~ 40hz or so. I personally don't think "bass blockers" are necessary as long as you don't boost the bass setting on the EQ. Especially since I don't recall you saying you were going to add an amp for the highs. And even if you do... the amp you buy will almost certainly have a built in crossover so you're good.

I am using the rear speaker wires for my sub channel input and I have no processing. I can verify that the signal drops off a cliff into the sub bass region but is full range beyond that. I don't know if this graph will make sense to you, but this is a measurement of *just* my sub. You can see just how fast the frequency response starts to "roll off" off past 40hz.

Now... some of this is the nature of my sealed box and it looks smooth, but a -40dB droop in frequency response is unacceptable (to me).

So I'm at a local stereo installer shop: He is giving me a quote for the installation of 4 door speakers (that I have myself) and the installation of 2 amps. Part of the quote is for 2 high/lo passes for the door components. I asked him if those were crossovers, because the speakers I purchased come with the crossovers. He just keeps calling them the hi/lo pass, and won't confirm or deny that they are the same or otherwise. I want to know if he's charging me more than he should. Anyone?

What he's probably referring to is an LOC (line output converter). It takes the speaker wires (Hi) and turns them into RCAs (Lo). I assume. They're usually necessary when adding aftermarket amps to a factory head unit. They come as cheap as $20 each. Make sure you don't get overcharged.

Some of them come with signal sensing auto turn on also. Even the cheaper ones. What this does is eliminate the need for a 12v switched remote wire. The LOC detects a signal from the speaker wire and sends a 12v trigger to the amps to turn them on. Easy peasy. Especially since that will cut down on install costs. I believe I paid $25 each for mine with the signal sensing turn on.

 

[reracer]

Not sure about that sub as I haven't used Memphis in many years, but if you're set on an 8"... check this little bad boy out. Tiny box requirements and with a very low resonant frequency (Fs), it should give you plenty of low end and output for a little 8".

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton...source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

But as RAAM mentioned... a larger sub will give you more output and/or do it more efficiently. If you can give up a bit more box size, stepping up to a 10" or 12" is a good idea. Check out the same line of subs but in the larger sizes. Great value there. But the Image Dynamic and Arc that Rick mentioned would be awesome too. It just come down to budget, really.

I was looking for a shallow-ish sub, because I'm trying to get everything under the trunk floor(including the spare tire and jack). I ended up going with this sub:

http://www.polkaudio.com/mm840-dvc/d/1155

Probably not the greatest, but I was also looking for one with a DVC. I'm not gonna expect it to reach really low, but I think it will perform well in my situation.

My question about the door speakers is this: If I turn down the bass at the HU, won't that turn down the bass signal I'm sending to the sub? I can probably turn the bass back up with the LC2i, but won't I be losing control with the HU. I didn't reall want to run remote controls for the sub amp and LC2i, if I can avoid it.

Thanks for your help. It's much appreciated.

Rob

 

[RAAMaudio]

Seems like a nice little sub, I would of gone to the 10" but let us know how you like it

I advise making the enclosure out of Baltic Birch Plywood as half the weight of MDF and much nicer material, if you mold the bottom, sides, etc then you can use fiberglass and save even more as that is pretty heavy little sub.

 

[reracer]

Seems like a nice little sub, I would of gone to the 10" but let us know how you like it

I advise making the enclosure out of Baltic Birch Plywood as half the weight of MDF and much nicer material, if you mold the bottom, sides, etc then you can use fiberglass and save even more as that is pretty heavy little sub.

I hope the sub works out, but if not, it was only $110.

I'm going with plywood route. I'm just going to trace the removable trunk floor, as it is easily installed and removed in the lower position, and mount everything to that, along with some disconnects for all the lines. It's gonna be shallow enough to keep the(narrow) spare, and the trunk floor in their regular positions. I'll make a separate thread once I get it going.

 

[TaylorFade]

I was looking for a shallow-ish sub, because I'm trying to get everything under the trunk floor(including the spare tire and jack). I ended up going with this sub:

http://www.polkaudio.com/mm840-dvc/d/1155

Probably not the greatest, but I was also looking for one with a DVC. I'm not gonna expect it to reach really low, but I think it will perform well in my situation.

My question about the door speakers is this: If I turn down the bass at the HU, won't that turn down the bass signal I'm sending to the sub? I can probably turn the bass back up with the LC2i, but won't I be losing control with the HU. I didn't reall want to run remote controls for the sub amp and LC2i, if I can avoid it.

Thanks for your help. It's much appreciated.

Rob

I know that sub.My buddy had a pair in his truck and they do very well for being both a shallow mount and reasonably priced. I think you will enjoy it.

As for the EQ... our meager EQ only boosts ~ 40hz-50hz or so (judging from my measurements). What I meant by *not* boosting it, was in reference to your door speakers not needing bass blockers. Having it at "flat" or "0" in the middle is fine. It's when you boost it past that- that you will run into trouble with the door speakers (distortion and what not). Since the sub will have amplification and is also larger, it will be able to overcome any cutting you do. Especially with a little more control from the Lc2i.

And speaking of the LC2i, since you reminded me about it, I went ahead and ordered one for myself and got it in the car this weekend. It does "boost" the bass, but it doesn't do as much as I'd hoped as far as adding lost information below 40hz. Oh well. It's better than an el cheapo with no control.