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taming body roll

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#1
Hi everyone, I just got back from an autocross day and had some questions.

2015 Fiesta ST

I tripod really bad in low speed turns and it usually ends up kind of bouncing / skipping in the front end a little from it digging in so hard on the outside tire. I was wondering if there's a way to fight this without making the rear end super tail happy.
I have a set of MeisterR coils with 5k/3k rates and the ride is great and so is the grip, I just think there might be other things I can improve? I also have a TB 2 point traction bar if that matters at all.

Do I get a bigger front sway to try and help with the transfer of weight and keep it a little more planted, then stiffen up the rear struts? Or what would be my best option?


Setup on the car is:

S280 Turbo
Tuneplus e30 tune ~310-320 wheel I think, haven't gotten it dyno'd but he said we've capped stock fuel system. I have aux fuel but haven't installed it yet.
full whoosh intake, with crossover pipe, etc
3 Inch whoosh v3 catless DP
3 inch thermal R&D exhaust
MeisterR zetaCRD 5k F / 3k R
TB Performance front traction bar
Vibra-technics driver side and passenger side mount
whoosh RMM
16x8 dekagrams on 205 50 16 RE71R
Stoptech rotors, stainless lines
 


jeffreylyon

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#2
I tripod quit a bit but without much drama. If youre wallowing around perhaps you need to increase your rear dampening. It sounds like you're saying that you're understeering - a swing axel stiffener or rear sway bar is a must have, IMHO.

Also, 3K seems light to me. I run 8/6 on my track FiST and my son runs 6/4 on his street FiST.
 


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Dpro

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#3
two things come to mind what are you camber settings in front? Have you thought about adding camber in the rear? I run 1.8 negative camber in front and rear and I have a added a rear swaybar. My car was a 2018 so it came with the larger Swaybar that is stock on non FiST Fiesta’s . If yours is a 15 you could get that bar and add it . I know after I installed the camber plates for the rear I sell. my rear was so planted it was crazy it raised the breakaway point dramatically to the point that it pushed the front end into understeer coming out of corners. I added the rear sway in and bam like that the car did not push the front end coming out of corners anymore. Of course I know have a higher speed rear end slide point that stock. That is something people need to be aware of when doing these things which each step your car becomes a little more fun and less forgiving. The ability for it to oversteer and slide the rear end stock allowed it to be a gas even at lower speeds while maintaining a high level of grip for what it is. All of this just takes it to another level.
With that said thats the things I have done and noticed and yes I am on coilovers with somewhat soft springs as well. My friends are on the MeisterR‘s with the higher rated springs and I have rode in their cars and they ride nice. Higher rated springs could help but the sways and camber can be real game changers.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #4
I tripod quit a bit but without much drama. If youre wallowing around perhaps you need to increase your rear dampening. It sounds like you're saying that you're understeering - a swing axel stiffener or rear sway bar is a must have, IMHO.

Also, 3K seems light to me. I run 8/6 on my track FiST and my son runs 6/4 on his street FiST.
It's not understeering and sliding the front, I'm not losing my line hardly at all, it's as if the weight transfers too hard and overloads that outside tire, and it gives way and then regrips again and almost has a skipping effect. Its hard to explain I guess.


When I talked with MeisterRs sales rep guy on here he said 5/3 would be perfect for dailying it and autocross, but I'm wondering if I do need to step it up maybe to 7/5 or something.


I could also be smacking the bump stop too and that's what's causing the harsh effects?

@Dpro I'm -2 degrees in the front right now with close to 0 toe up front as well.
 


Dpro

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#5
It's not understeering and sliding the front, I'm not losing my line hardly at all, it's as if the weight transfers too hard and overloads that outside tire, and it gives way and then regrips again and almost has a skipping effect. Its hard to explain I guess.


When I talked with MeisterRs sales rep guy on here he said 5/3 would be perfect for dailying it and autocross, but I'm wondering if I do need to step it up maybe to 7/5 or something.


I could also be smacking the bump stop too and that's what's causing the harsh effects?

@Dpro I'm -2 degrees in the front right now with close to 0 toe up front as well.
I take it you are stock in the rear? Also what tires are you on? The only time I experience outward push on the front end was when I added in negative camber in the rear without a a torsion brace or swaybar. mind you my entry speeds went up and corner grip was higher at the expense of push coming out. The minute I tossed my rear swaybar on it dialed it back in instantly. Now I must remind you I own a 18 which has the larger front bar stock. I would say since you own a 15 I would put the larger aka stock Fiesta front bar on . Easy to find in junk yards for cheap.
 


jeffreylyon

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#6
It's not understeering and sliding the front, I'm not losing my line hardly at all, it's as if the weight transfers too hard and overloads that outside tire, and it gives way and then regrips again and almost has a skipping effect. Its hard to explain I guess.


When I talked with MeisterRs sales rep guy on here he said 5/3 would be perfect for dailying it and autocross, but I'm wondering if I do need to step it up maybe to 7/5 or something.


I could also be smacking the bump stop too and that's what's causing the harsh effects?

@Dpro I'm -2 degrees in the front right now with close to 0 toe up front as well.
If you like the balance but just want to control the speed of the weight transfer across the rear try add some rear dampening. That will cause the car to rotate more during weight transfer but shouldn't affect steady-state. I really like a car that likes to point at the apex during turn-in without stabbing the brake.

After you can roll into a turn without bouncing then you're ready to change the balance. Adding rear camber will move balance towards understeer and adding rear roll stiffness with move balance towards oversteer. Whatever you do, do just one thing at a time and get the car settled, first.
 


Dpro

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#7
If you like the balance but just want to control the speed of the weight transfer across the rear try add some rear dampening. That will cause the car to rotate more during weight transfer but shouldn't affect steady-state. I really like a car that likes to point at the apex during turn-in without stabbing the brake.

After you can roll into a turn without bouncing then you're ready to change the balance. Adding rear camber will move balance towards understeer and adding rear roll stiffness with move balance towards oversteer. Whatever you do, do just one thing at a time and get the car settled, first.
You could not have put it better Jeff, I raised my corner speed and grip by adding negative camber at the expense of understeer on exit and added some oversteer back in with the sway. Basically making the car perform like it did before those mods but with higher corner speeds and breakaway points. Its why I say its even more fun but also more dangerous. lol
Oh and yes dialing up is his dampening in the rear could help kick me for forgetting about that. lol and I am like you I love the fact that the car points to the apex at turn in. It was one of things I noticed early on in testing driving the cars.
 


jeffreylyon

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#8
You could not have put it better Jeff, I raised my corner speed and grip by adding negative camber at the expense of understeer on exit and added some oversteer back in with the sway. Basically making the car perform like it did before those mods but with higher corner speeds and breakaway points. Its why I say its even more fun but also more dangerous. lol
Oh and yes dialing up is his dampening in the rear could help kick me for forgetting about that. lol and I am like you I love the fact that the car points to the apex at turn in. It was one of things I noticed early on in testing driving the cars.
Where is your FiST's balance? I don't mind a tail-happy car on A/C but I really don't want to try to catch oversteer in a high-speed turn with a de-spooled turbo. I've got mine setup with a tad of steady-state understeer so a brake tap or speed-scrubbing will set it right.

I was braver in my younger days (or dumber..). Maybe I'll grab an adjustable rear sway bar to be able to add danger as speed is reduced, i.e. more rear stiffness for A/C and less for track days.
 


Dpro

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#9
Where is your FiST's balance? I don't mind a tail-happy car on A/C but I really don't want to try to catch oversteer in a high-speed turn with a de-spooled turbo. I've got mine setup with a tad of steady-state understeer so a brake tap or speed-scrubbing will set it right.

I was braver in my younger days (or dumber..). Maybe I'll grab an adjustable rear sway bar to be able to add danger as speed is reduced, i.e. more rear stiffness for A/C and less for track days.
My balance the added rear swabar feels more like stock now. After I put the camber plates in I noticed push on exit which was annoying as it messed up my line lol, without taking some kind of correctional action. I did not spend much time after experiencing that going straight to the rear bar. Once that was in the balance was more like the car was stock except higher grip so faster turns. I like the idea of an adjustable rear bar to dial in and out on the fly. Would be interesting to play with. I am recovering from a ear operation right now so I am not going out and doing any driving beyond around town. In a week or two I will be able to gather further feedback.
I need to run it on the tighter technical stuff as well to see how it is there. But ya given that it responds like stock but at faster speeds lol thats fun too me but ya I am a little on the brave or crazy side of things in this. When I was younger it was even more so. lol
 


jeffreylyon

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#12
How are we 9 posts in and nobody has asked or mentioned tire pressures? What tire pressures are you running?
If his rear is hopping I suppose that he could be rolling the sidewall. @OP - chalk your tires down to the sidewall to see if the tire is rolling onto the sidewall (you'll also see nasty scuff marks). Add pressure if so. I still think that the first thing you should do if get the oscillation under control.

I start with 38/35 on RT615k+'s and dial-in from there cuz tire pressure is one of the few things I'm not too lazy to adjust.
 


kivnul

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#13
I use a different size re71’s but my optimum for autox seems to be 42 front, 38 rear

Edit. How stretched are you with those 205’s on 8” wheels?
 


OP
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Thread Starter #14
How are we 9 posts in and nobody has asked or mentioned tire pressures? What tire pressures are you running?
38 /36, which is what a buddy with the same tire size and tire told me to use, he has a Fiesta as well
 


OP
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Thread Starter #15
I use a different size re71’s but my optimum for autox seems to be 42 front, 38 rear

Edit. How stretched are you with those 205’s on 8” wheels?
Hardly stretched at all if any. But I don't think re71s idea of 205 is actually 205, seems more like a 215-225
 


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OP
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Thread Starter #16
If his rear is hopping I suppose that he could be rolling the sidewall. @OP - chalk your tires down to the sidewall to see if the tire is rolling onto the sidewall (you'll also see nasty scuff marks). Add pressure if so. I still think that the first thing you should do if get the oscillation under control.

I start with 38/35 on RT615k+'s and dial-in from there cuz tire pressure is one of the few things I'm not too lazy to adjust.
I did run chalk on the sidewalls, and it seemed to be right on the spot it should be the whole day at 38 psi, checking and airing down in between runs if needed.

The rear wasn't hopping it was the front outside loaded tire in the corners whenever I tripod
 


TemecFist

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#17
I tripod quit a bit but without much drama. If youre wallowing around perhaps you need to increase your rear dampening. It sounds like you're saying that you're understeering - a swing axel stiffener or rear sway bar is a must have, IMHO.

Also, 3K seems light to me. I run 8/6 on my track FiST and my son runs 6/4 on his street FiST.
This. I have GT1's with 8/6 spring rates. Once the dampening is set, I hardly have any body roll
 


jayrod1980

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#18
Not to hijack but how hard is it to install the front sway bar? How does the stock fiesta sway make the 2018s handle differently?
 


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