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You want great handling? Look at race cars!

OP
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Thread Starter #21
Milliken is a great book, but dense (that article is largely lifted from it), and no offense, but it appears you’ve read about a 1/4 way through the article and gotten bored and confused.

First, the straight up CG vs Track width “total lateral load transfer” is a simplified model that ignores suspension geometry and while it still has an effect on load transfer, it has little actual effect on when it comes to chassis setup. The more complex model gets broken down later in the article.

This is an artifact of simplifying from Milliken, which spends several chapters on multiple simple models of a vehicle, starting with a single wheel, then a two wheel bicycle, then a four wheel rigid vehicle, and finally a model that includes suspension geometry. It also derives cg and roll center as mathematical concepts, initially ignoring (but acknowledging later) that in an actual car at the final
chassis setup stage, cg and roll center cannot be changed independently.

The reason for this is that the initial assumptions are based around actually designing a suspension system from scratch, where cg and front+rear roll centers can be defined separately.

In the end, the roll component that is insignificant is from roll angle and the effect from gravity due to the CG being offset laterally from roll center. This establishes that “extreme body roll” in itself has very little effect on load transfer.

With suspension taken into account, The only portion of the car that behaves as you are assuming is the unsprung mass (wheels, tires and outer control arms/shocks/struts) which is a small component of the vehicle mass.

What’s described later is that in fact the “direct” or “kinematic” load transfer at each axle is defined by the distance from cg to roll axis, where roll axis is the line between front and rear roll centers.

The “it’s complicated” part comes in is that in moving roll center and cg at one end of the car by raising and lowering that axle has a compound effect on both axles of the car, the angle of the roll axis and that stiffness of one axle has an effect on load transfer at the other. It’s from this effect that we change understeer/oversteer dynamics.

In the end, on a street car that is past the design stage and has predetermined CG and suspension geometry, the total load transfer cannot be changed much at all, and changing CG height alone is fairly irrelevant when it comes to “tuning” the suspension.

Instead, two knobs we have to turn in a non-aero car are:

1) Ride frequency which determines the ability of the tires to follow the road. This is primarily influenced by spring rates, and the optimum 2.0-2.5 Hz target mentioned previously is an empirically derived figure that comes from typical road surface feature sizes for a typical car sized mass (1000-2000kg)

2) Relative front to rear roll stiffness ratio, which affect understeer/oversteer dynamics. When ride frequency is optimized, anti-sway bars have a much higher (2-3x) effect on roll stiffness, and so tuning this behavior is best done with sway bars.

3) Increasing roll stiffness (which has little effect on total load transfer) on a Mac-strut car, geometry has poor camber compensation with roll, so this points towards higher roll stiffness to maintain tire geometry. Not as important on a double-wishbone car, which can allow more body roll.

4) Higher roll stiffness can help with dynamic stability, as large amounts of body roll mean a slower response time to steering inputs

5) There’s an opposite influence - high roll stiffness from anti-sway bars means your suspension is less independent, and results in deviation from optimum ride frequency when it comes to one-wheel bumps, and so this means we want the least roll stiffness we can get away with and still accomplish #4 (vehicle stability and response)

And of course this all goes completely out the window with heavy underbody aero, as then we care more about keeping the front splitter and rear diffuser level and maintain the most consistent ride height (as total downforce changes as the aero gets closer and farther from the ground, from changes in airflow). Aero cars want stiffer setups.
man...first you insult me again...than you elaborate 20 sentences on how i simplify something i clearly stated as simplifaction...thats it for me

"In the end, on a street car that is past the design stage and has predetermined CG and suspension geometry, the total load transfer cannot be changed much at all, and changing CG height alone is fairly irrelevant when it comes to “tuning” the suspension." <-- I rly hope that everybody who has the slightest idea of this topic can tell that this sentence is as wrong as it could be, EVERY production based race car in all classes around the world does exactly this: lowering the the CG as much as they can get away with to increase overall grip
 


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Dialcaliper

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#22
man...first you insult me again...than you elaborate 20 sentences on how i simplify something i clearly stated as simplifaction...thats it for me

"In the end, on a street car that is past the design stage and has predetermined CG and suspension geometry, the total load transfer cannot be changed much at all, and changing CG height alone is fairly irrelevant when it comes to “tuning” the suspension." <-- I rly hope that everybody who has the slightest idea of this topic can tell that this sentence is as wrong as it could be
So what you’re saying is that you TL;DR’d my post, felt insulted and grabbed a quote you felt disagreed with your simplification (which you’ve acknowledged as such).

The problem with your simplified assumption is that you are making a claim based on it that is detached from reality, which has this really bad habit of disagreeing with simple models.

My point is that the amount that you can change total load transfer by just lowering the car has very little effect on how well the car handles, and in doing so, and adding excessive stiffness, you make the things that actually matter worse
 


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OP
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Thread Starter #23
So what you’re saying is that you TL;DR’d my post, felt insulted and grabbed a quote you felt disagreed with your simplification (which you’ve acknowledged as such).
Nope, I am not saying that. I read you full post, I do not rly feel too insulted and I grabbed a quote that is not correct in my opinion.
I think you should rly rethink that: "total load transfer cannot be changed much at all, and changing CG height alone is fairly irrelevant when it comes to “tuning” the suspension".

last comment from me: I race 3h-6h endurance in a small national amateur series and i know most of the cars and their setup, so this experience is not "detached from reality". I also have a masters degree in physics with 15+ years experience (ofc not in the field of race engineering) and I am pretty sure i understand the article and derivations i linked myself.
 


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Dialcaliper

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#24
Nope, I am not saying that. I read you full post, I do not rly feel too insulted and I grabbed a quote that is not correct in my opinion.
I think you should rly rethink that: "total load transfer cannot be changed much at all, and changing CG height alone is fairly irrelevant when it comes to “tuning” the suspension".

last comment from me: I race 3h-6h endurance in a small national amateur series and i know most of the cars and their setup, so this experience is not "detached from reality" as you claim. I also have a masters degree in physics with 15+ years experience (ofc not in the field of race engineering) and I am pretty sure i understand the article and derivations i linked myself.
I’m not suggesting that your experience is detached from reality, only the simplified model (in the literal sense). Apologies for the connotation that phrase usually carries.

What I’m trying to say is that fixating on total load transfer is not useful in tuning a suspension that’s already designed. It’s one of many important considerations in a “from-scratch” suspension design. Yes, CG height affects it, but lowering your car to accomplish that ignores all the other things that change that are more important in tuning suspension system.
 


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Dialcaliper

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#25
Nope, I am not saying that. I read you full post, I do not rly feel too insulted and I grabbed a quote that is not correct in my opinion.
I think you should rly rethink that: "total load transfer cannot be changed much at all, and changing CG height alone is fairly irrelevant when it comes to “tuning” the suspension".

last comment from me: I race 3h-6h endurance in a small national amateur series and i know most of the cars and their setup, so this experience is not "detached from reality". I also have a masters degree in physics with 15+ years experience (ofc not in the field of race engineering) and I am pretty sure i understand the article and derivations i linked myself.
Then as a physicist, I’d expect you’d be aware of the problem of simplified models - sometimes they describe a certain phenomenon well, but other times they do not. This is one of those times like describing the photoelectric effect using classical mechanics, and you’re trying to measure change by altering intensity, but ignoring changes in frequency from your blackbody source.
 


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Then as a physicist, I’d expect you’d be aware of the problem of simplified models - sometimes they describe a certain phenomenon well, but other times they do not. This is one of those times like describing the photoelectric effect using classical mechanics, and you’re trying to measure change by altering intensity, but ignoring changes in frequency.
Thx for explaining that to me, never thought of this! Let's settle this argument: you are right, stay close to OEM geometry+height+suspension, all the race teams are dead wrong. See you on the track.
 


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Thread Starter #28
For everybody that made it that far I tried to find some numbers for non aero cup cars in old homologation papers (2012-2016) that have spring rates, ofc they also have lowered CG and weight reduction. The stock spring rates I quickly googled so not sure if they are 100% correct

Swift: 400 lbs/inch, 900kg (Öhlins Cup), Stock: 140lbs/inch
M2: 800lbs/inch, 1400kg (KW Comp), Stock: ?
Clio: 450-620lbs/inch, 1100kg (Öhlins Cup), Stock: 180lbs/inch

We are currently building another 99 civic for 3h amateur races ~950 kg using ~450 lbs/inch front+rear eibach springs (stock 160/80 so ~3x front, ~6x rear) no rear roll bar, lowered as much as I can get away with, but this one has double wishbone suspension.
 


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OP
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Thread Starter #32
In your mind, why does the suspension type make in difference? A lower Cg is always better, right?
No, a lower CG is not ALWAYS better. Look at rough rally cars. The CG should be as low as you can get away with without bottoming out too bad on the given track and adapt your static geometry/linkage. This is what holds true for every race car from Rally Kenia to 24h Nürburgring.

Suspension type makes a big difference, the dynamic camber/toe/ackermann/rollcenter are determined by this type.
But let's say you run stock mcpherson on your fiesta. You take a turn superhard and almost hit the bumpstop. There was a dynamic camber change, that got positive in the end. Now you do the same with the car lowered, same geometry but static camber/toe dialed in + much stiffer springs, you will only traverse the last small part of exactly this camber change. Ofc you would like that change to be negative and also help with your ackerman%, but thats just not how mcpherson works. With double wishbone this is much better.
 


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jeffreylyon

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#33
No, a lower CG is not ALWAYS better. Look at rough rally cars. The CG should be as low as you can get away with without bottoming out too bad on the given track. This is what holds true for every race car from Rally Kenia to 24h Nürburgring.
Then, again, why bother mentioning that Civic is not a strut car but, rather, double a-arms? Why, in your mind, is that important?
 


jeffreylyon

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Ah, I thought that you might have had an epiphany that roll-center is important as well..., never mind.
 


OP
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Thread Starter #36
Ah, I thought that you might have had an epiphany that roll-center is important as well..., never mind.
ofc roll axis is important! What i just described two posts above is the dynamic camber change that comes with roll (determined by roll axis/centers and roll stiffness) but I think I never claimed rollcenter is not important. I just stated many times now that CG lowering often dominate grip level gains compared to the effects of the lowered roll center or your mentioned negative angled LCA's.
This is due to the non linear deteriorating increase in grip with increasing load transfer to that tire.
 


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jeffreylyon

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ofc it is important! What i just described two posts above is the dynamic camber change that comes with roll (determined by roll axis/centers and roll stiffness)
Awesome - so you must agree that lowering a car to the point that the resulting change in Cg vs. roll-center increases roll will have a detrimental effect, i.e. lowering a car an 25mm serves no purpose if such lowers the roll-center 80mm.
 


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Awesome - so you must agree that lowering a car to the point that the resulting change in Cg vs. roll-center increases roll will have a detrimental effect, i.e. lowering a car an 25mm serves no purpose if such lowers the roll-center 80mm.
Show me the car and geometry and math where this is the case please, surely you cannot mean your fiesta ST?
 


jeffreylyon

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Are you saying that you don't believe that lowering a Mac-strut car can have a detrimental effect on the Cg/roll-center relationship?
 


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Are you saying that you don't believe that lowering a Mac-strut car can have a detrimental effect on the Cg/roll-center relationship?
No, I am just asking for the geometry example you gave, we can do the math if you want, also we can look at the effect for grip deterioration and gain by dynamic toe/camber change and lowering for rollcenter and CG lowering for this example, it will "proof" what I am talking about, if the real world examples i gave are not convincing
 


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